[talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Now talking to NPWS.

One question for everybody.

Mark P was there in Nov 2023 & track was still there, with no "Track
closed, keep out" or similar signage.

Has anybody been there since then & can confirm or otherwise that this is
still the case?

Thanks

Graeme


On Wed, 21 Feb 2024 at 16:44, Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Message resent regarding proposed Liaison Officer & also confirming track
> in question.
>
> Awaiting response.
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 17:16, Phil Wyatt <phil at wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>
>> I have also contacted Stephen privately to see if he wants to chat
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 20, 2024 5:54 PM
>> *To:* Andrew Welch <mail at andrewwelch.net>
>> *Cc:* Mark Pulley <mrpulley at iinet.net.au>; OpenStreetMap-AU Mailing List
>> <talk-au at openstreetmap.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS
>>
>>
>>
>> NPWS have now contacted DWG again.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was in the process of responding to his comments, was up to ~10
>> paragraphs, then hit the wrong button in our DWG system & deleted the
>> lot!!! :-(
>>
>>
>>
>> That's well & truly enough for today so I'll try again (after trying to
>> remember what I said!) tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> Graeme
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 16:10, Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
>> talk-au at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think it might also be important to state that OSM is a database, so if
>> consumers aren’t rendering tracks properly if tagged as such, the issue is
>> with them not us, and that what they are doing can be considered as
>> vandalism by mappers. We have ways to reflect the current state, and ensure
>> that mappers unaware of these discussions won’t go ahead and re-add the
>> trails.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Andrew Welch
>>
>> mail at andrewwelch.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 20 Feb 2024 at 3:45 pm, Mark Pulley <mrpulley at iinet.net.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I’ve just had another private message from Stephen Stenberg:
>>
>>
>>
>> I had replied privately:
>>
>>
>>
>> Prior to reversion, we had been discussing this for several months at the
>> talk-au mailing list. I had delayed the reversion as I was of the
>> understanding that someone from NPWS was about to join the discussion, but
>> that did not eventuate.
>>
>> For reasons discussed on some of the previous changesets, and on the
>> mailing list, there should be something present. I’ve added a comment to my
>> changeset regarding a couple of suitable changes, and have sent a note back
>> to the mailing list for further discussion.
>>
>>
>>
>> I had also added a comment to the most recent changeset.
>>
>>
>>
>> He has replied to me:
>>
>>
>>
>> I hope this message finds you well. Several months ago, you were informed
>> about the decision to exclude certain paths near Apsley Falls Campground
>> from OpenStreetMap. Despite clear communication from the NSW National Parks
>> and Wildlife Service (NPWS) stating that these tracks, at their request,
>> have been removed, it appears there is a persistent effort to reintroduce
>> them.
>>
>> It is important to emphasize that these paths are situated on NPWS land,
>> and as part of their management strategy, NPWS no longer wishes for these
>> paths to be displayed. Reinstating these pathways not only contradicts NPWS
>> wishes but also requires additional work hours from their end to rectify
>> the situation.
>>
>> It is crucial to understand that NPWS has already dedicated resources to
>> remove these paths, and by reapplying them, it creates unnecessary
>> challenges. I urge you to respect NPWS’s decision and refrain from adding
>> these paths back onto OpenStreetMap.
>>
>> Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated and will
>> contribute to the effective management of the area.
>>
>> Thank you for your understanding.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have replied back, requesting that he either make comments on the
>> changeset, or discuss on the mailing list, rather than send private
>> messages, as I don’t want to be passing messages back and forth. (Thanks
>> to tonyf1 who has made the same suggestion on the changeset.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 20 Feb 2024, at 2:13 pm, Mark Pulley <mrpulley at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I’ve just received a private message from Stephen Stenberg (who had
>> deleted these last time):
>>
>>
>>
>> Contrary to your statement, the NSW National Parks and Wildlife Service
>> has officially closed the track.
>>
>> “Reasons for reversion: This is still visible on the ground (checked by
>> myself 30 November 2023) The track is not formally closed.”
>>
>> Kindly refrain from reinstating this track, as doing so will necessitate
>> its removal once again by NPWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> So far the track hasn’t been deleted again.
>>
>> I had asked on one of the older changesets about whether this had been
>> officially closed - didn’t get an answer to that, only "These tracks per
>> our request have been removed. Please do not add them back on."
>>
>> It’s a shame that NPWS hadn’t bothered to join the discussion on here.
>>
>> I’ve added a comment to my reversion changeset, suggesting access=no
>> (rather than deleting outright). Any relevant comments there are welcome!
>>
>>
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 13 Feb 2024, at 11:17 pm, Mark Pulley <mrpulley at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Done. https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147406352
>>
>>
>> Mark P.
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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