[talk-au] Deletion of informal paths by NSW NPWS

[forster at ozonline.com.au]

Thanks Adam, well put.

There are two groups, both trying to be of service to the wider  
community. The mappers trying to build better maps and land managers  
trying to protect and manage public land well.

If a land manager sees mappers not respecting their decisions about  
managing public land, they will see it as vandalism. If mappers see  
Parks deleting map data, they will see that as vandalism too.

The problem is that there is very little communication between the two  
groups. Partly because Parks people are overworked and time poor, at  
least in Victoria which I know best. Also because consensus management  
and public forums are an unfamiliar form of management for Parks. They  
are looking for the person in charge and confidential discussions.

The paths include high stakes stuff, some trivial, but also tracks  
that may lure people over cliffs and environmental damage that may  
last forever. We are doing better at communicating than the land  
managers are at the moment. That is good. I am glad to be part of this  
group which is so patient and so responsible. I want us to keep being  
responsible and keep listening.

And I again invite the land managers to engage with us in discussion,  
here or another place of their choice. It is a serious issue that will  
only be resolved through discussion.

Tony

> Wait ... does the OSM community seriously want to call public land managers
> vandals for attempting to manage access to parts of public land effectively?
>
> This is a publicly archived forum, which land managers may read.
>
> It's been raised a few times, and I have no problem raising this again:
>
> - OSM have zero control over who renders what downstream, regardless of
> tags.
>
> - the existence of trails in a map infers useability at some point.
>
> - continually reinstating trails to a database may incur real world
> monetary, ecological, landscape and cultural costs, aside from time of
> people engaging in slow edit wars. Who is OSM is then liable for those
> costs?
>
> - who in the land management community would now feel inclined to join this
> discussion? It seems obvious the OSM community isn't prepared to listen,
> only to talk...
>
> This thread has been a bit mind numbing. I've tried hard to avoid writing
> this post, and couldn't any more.
>
> There are more important values than a database. Land managers have better
> things to do that have edit wars.
>
> And to repeat, OSM has no control over who renders what downstream. Please
> respect a land managers decision, or at least ask about it respectfully and
> wait as long as is needed for a response. They're busy..managing land.
>
> With regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 29, 2024, 21:09 Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
> talk-au at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>> As much as we want to wait on them and work with them, there?s probably a
>> point at which we should treat their edits like vandalism (and just revert
>> their deletions) until they actually work with us.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Andrew Welch
>> mail at andrewwelch.net
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 8:13?pm, Graeme Fitzpatrick <graemefitz1 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I've yet had no response back from Stephen Stenberg re Slate Falls
>>> Lookout, after I basically repeated what you all had already said   
>>> to him :-(
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Graeme
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 29 Feb 2024 at 10:51, Andrew Welch via Talk-au <
>>> talk-au at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The user who's edits were revered by Frederik has now tagged those ways
>>>> as access=no, hopefully that means the message is starting to get  
>>>>  across to
>>>> NPWS.
>>>>
>>>> They did set some questionable names on those trails though, and haven't
>>>> replied to a changeset comment asking about those.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Andrew Welch
>>>> mail at andrewwelch.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2024 at 23:12, Mark Pulley <mrpulley at iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There?s probably going to be other examples of NPWS deleting paths.
>>>>> I?ve just had a look at the Jungle Circuit in Blackheath. This   
>>>>> was deleted
>>>>> by NPWS https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/144648041 - at least
>>>>> most of it was, a small bridge was left behind near the creek, and the
>>>>> first part from Rodriguez Pass was left alone. With Rodriguez Pass
>>>>> currently closed, I?m not able to check it in-person. It was passable in
>>>>> 2017, with some indistinct sections, so it?s possible that the 2020 fires
>>>>> and 2022 floods have finished it off. I?ve asked a clarifying question on
>>>>> the changeset.
>>>>>
>>>>> Mark P.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27 Feb 2024, at 8:53?pm, Frederik Ramm <frederik at remote.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't followed this thread and I don't know if this is relevant to
>>>>> the discussion but I have just reverted the deletion of a bunch   
>>>>> of paths in
>>>>> Tweed Shire, NSW here https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/147956474
>>>>> - the deleter claims to have ties to NPS.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
>>>>> E008°23'33"
>>>>>
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>>>>> Talk-au at openstreetmap.org
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>>>>>
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