[Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh

Mon Nov 11 07:27:46 UTC 2019

Dear Md. Iqbal Hossain,

Thank you for participating in the discussion.

I believe you are reading all the posts of this email thread and you are
aware that it is not about adding any vote to some individual, we are
talking about establishing a policy for the whole community.

At the last mail of this thread Mr Rabbi mentioned that (everyone can check
this by their own) Mr Aftabuzzaman is referring to a community guideline
which he added and there is no earlier discussion reference prior to adding
this common guideline. As you mentioned you agree with Mr Aftabuzzaman,,
then should i understand that are supporting all of these actions and
activities regarding this matter or what?

Please write the reply elaborately and mention the reasons which direction
should we go about the matter we started the discussion here.

thanks
Nasir Khan

--
*Nasir Khan Saikat*
www.nasirkhn.com

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 18:23, Fazle Rabbi <fazlerabbi37 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Mr Aftabuzzaman,
>
>
> Thank you for participating in the discussion. We really appreciate it.
>
>
> > I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in
> English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
> community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
> whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
> practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all
> arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.
>
> Disagreement is part of discussion and always welcomed. You have said that
> as per your understating the OSM policy/general community guideline says
> `name` tag should be in local language and you refer to 2 OSM wiki links.
> The first link is about `name` tag localization not about what should be
> on a `name` tag. The first line of that section says, "By now the majority
> of rendering systems can deal with Unicode characters, so you can use the
> local script for the default name tag. There is no need to use the Latin
> script.". If I understand it correctly it says we can use local script
> assumed it works in most system but for us it is not working. The second
> link is about one place having multiple name in multiple language. If you
> check the Issue section (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Issues), it says
> in the first point "if not disputed" `name` should have local name. I agree
> to disagree. We have dispute in local name. Multilingual name is not same
> as localization. For example, 'United States' has 'মার্কিন যুক্তরাষ্ট্র' as
> Bengali as Multilingual name but in the context of our country we call it
> 'America'. Please don't mix them up. You have also referenced that Japan,
> China, Russia usages it but spiked about India which has similar font to
> Bangladesh than any of those countries. India has a different page (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/India#Naming_in_different_scripts_and_languages)
> for it where the community after much discussion decided to keep English in
> `name` tag. Emphasis on 'after much discussion'. Let's see if we have
> anything of the same kind, shall we? We see that we do have a Bangladesh
> section (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Bangladesh)
> that says that `name` should be Bengali and `name:en= should be in English.
> But if we see the version history (
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Multilingual_names&action=history)
> for that page that this edit was made by you(
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Aftab) on 19:55, 28 May 2019‎.
> The first ever edit made by you on OSM was on 04 Jul 2018 17:53:57. Nobody
> in the community knows about the page or the change. This looks very
> convenient, isn't it? This is very heart-breaking to see that you edited
> the wiki page without community consent to justify your work.
>
>
> > We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla
> correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority
> of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
> Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla
> so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
> solution.....
>
> Let's focus on the problem, shall we? The problem is putting Bengali in
> `name` tag is causing problem and how we should solve it. For you, UX
> problem caused by software that can't render Bengali is not an 'acceptable
> reason' to replace Bengali names with `name:bn` tag even if it makes the
> work of disaster response challenging, and we should ask the dev to fix
> them. Fair enough. What we need to remember that this is an open source
> ecosystem and people work as volunteer so it is tough to put a deadline on
> a problem like this. So what should we do in the meantime? If it doesn't
> work, shouldn't we use the Latin script instead of making a horrible user
> experience and waiting for the devs to fix the problem?
>
> I think, in your rush to reply you didn't read the email completely or
> understand it. For example, forgot about the second point for adopting
> English name in `name` tag which was the problem faced by humanitarian aid
> agencies like UN, MSF, Red Crescent and WFP who were unable to the data for
> Bangladesh. You said that "It is not true that in order to fix Bangla
> rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.". Unfortunately, I
> didn't say that on my mail. What I said that if we keep default names to
> Bengali, people from other country who wants to use the map of Bangladesh
> in OSM needs to learn because how else they will use that map with Bengali
> name?
>
>
> > It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can
> see it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name =
> সড়ক ১" & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show
> local language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.
>
> At the past it was true. We see that some quick edits has been made to
> recover this, like: changeset 76836045(osm.org/changeset/76836045). We do
> really appreciate it. But we have discovered 2 new problems on those edits.
>
> - Changeset comments are in Bengali. For example, 'সংশোধন' meaning
> 'Fixed'. This is not OK even for me who can read Bengali. For me what is
> fixed? And for someone who can't read Bengali? Well, he is lost. Please
> remember that data is not just for the people of Bangladesh but also for
> all over the work. Please use English both in changeset comments and
> changeset discussions.
>
> - This is not a problem in your edit but it still a problem caused by the
> same notion that `name` tag should have Bengali value. The problem is
> `name` tags are being translated using Google Translate from the previous
> English value of the `name` tag. Which is bad. Really really Bad! For
> example, Bus stop became 'বাস থামবে'. changeset 76681081(
> osm.org/changeset/76681081) Photo Reference:
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/2RDMUz2PjQt655p78.
>
>
> > Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use
> default/primary "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code
> e.g name:en for English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our
> general guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this,
> thats fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad
> nameing guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use
> default/primary "name" tag in Bangla.
>
> The OSM global policy is there to guide us which is not a decisive policy.
> For each community, the members of the community discuses what should be
> done keeping the guide as reference. What you wrote in this part is a
> proposal which if you asked the community, we could have discussed to come
> to can conclusion. But you already vandalized the data on your own make it
> unusable for both user and aid agencies. So we are way past that.
>
>
> Look this is not about you or edits made by you. Let's put all of this
> away for now and see this issue as a whole as it has an effect on the whole
> ecosystem then the tile images on the OSM site like data integrity,
> usability and use case for end user. Where literally human lives are at
> stake we should be a bit careful.
>
>
> I would like other in the community to engage on this conversation and put
> forward their opinion. Then we can decide on what to put on `name` tag.
>
>
> Thank you!
>
> Regards
>
> Fazle Rabbi
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 6:32 AM Aftabuzzaman Ullah <
> aftabuzzamanullah at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello. Thanks for mail.
>> I respectfully disagree that we should use default/primary "name" tag in
>> English instead of Bangla. If i understand correctly, OSM policy/general
>> community guideline is that default/primary "name" tag should be in
>> whatever language is used locally (for Bangladesh it is Bangla). (
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names ) It is common
>> practice and it is followed by most countries e.g Japan, China, Russia, all
>> arabic, cyrillic speaking countries etc countries.
>>
>> We should use English because some software doesn't render Bangla
>> correctly isn't acceptable reason. It's may be true but By now the majority
>> of rendering systems/software can deal with unicode characters, supports
>> Bangla characters. Just because some software/site doesn't support Bangla
>> so we should use English, is like you have headache so cut the head like
>> solution. Like you said openstreetmap-carto was unable to render Bangla but
>> it was fixed now. Same thing can be done with others, if an app doesn't
>> support Bangla, we need to submit bug report, reach out the developer for
>> adding Bangla font. Thats will be correct solution. It is not true that in
>> order to fix Bangla rendering problem, developer needs to learn Bangla.
>> They will just need to specify/include a Bangla font. we should need to
>> take necessary step to fix rendering problem in the apps/site that don't
>> render Bangla correctly e.g. submiting bug report (for exemple, to fix HOT
>> rendering problem we need to ask developer to add a Bangla font here
>> https://github.com/hotosm/HDM-CartoCSS/tree/master/fonts . i can see
>> they already added arabic, tamil, thai, lao etc font) I will be happy to
>> help with this & others.
>>
>> It is also not true that English names were deleted altogether, i can see
>> it just moved to "name:en" field (e.g "name = Road 1" became "name = সড়ক ১"
>> & "name:en = Road 1"). If any software/site doesn't want to show local
>> language but english, they easily fallback to name:en.
>>
>> Per OSM policy/general community guideline, We should use default/primary
>> "name" tag in Bangla, any other name language in their code e.g name:en for
>> English, name:it for Italian etc. That's should be our general
>> guideline. Yes, If for some reason someone cannot/don't do this, thats
>> fine, no one going to yell / block them. But in general, our broad nameing
>> guideline should be same as OSM general guideline, use default/primary
>> "name" tag in Bangla.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-bd mailing list
>> Talk-bd at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-bd
>>
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