[Talk-bd] Talk-bd Digest, Vol 36, Issue 16

Sawan Shariar sshariar1991 at gmail.com
Tue Nov 26 07:16:39 UTC 2019 

Dear Mr Ramm

Hope you are doing well.

I am S M Sawan Shariar commonly known as Sawan from YouthMappers Community
Bangladesh. I have been involved with OSM in Bangladesh since 2015.
I am also an Associate Member of OpenStreetMap Foundation (OSMF) and I was
one of the scholar for SotM 2019 in Heidelberg, Germany from OSMF.
Currently working as a YouthMappers coordinator to engaging youth on this
platform in different educational institutes in Bangladesh.

1. English is not being used in daily life conversation in Bangladesh when
we are communicating with Bangladeshi people due to our mother tongue is
Bengali. In our country most of the universities educational system is
continuing by using English Language. They are not speaking in English for
conversation but they are able to read and write anything in English.
People who are using map for navigation in daily life or emergency cases
they are using English. I am not mentioning all the people but who are
using OSM/Maps in daily life, they have minimum level of English knowledge.

In Bangladesh, most of the NGO's, UN Programs, government institutes and
educational institutes  are using OSM data in English for their research.

Most of the signages uses in English, some have both and a few numbers is
in Bengali in the city areas. But in the rural part we can find most of the
nameplates is in Bengali.

2. I know OSM Bangladesh community is not a personal initiative or a small
group of people rather it represents the OSM community in Bangladesh
contributing since the very begining of the journey. It is a more
coordinated community collaboration platform for the groups & individuals
contributing to OSM. Almost all the organized mapping projects,
initiatives, trainings on OSM in bangladesh are guided & supported by the
core group involved to the foundation since very early stages of the
community itself. And liaison & collaboration also ensured from the same
core group to the global community like HOT, MissingMaps & OSMF itself from
the very beginning.

In Bangladesh we have 13 YouthMappers Chapers in different universities and
educational institutes with around thousand OSM contributors. We the
YouthMappers  also agreed to use English in `name` and Bengali in `name:bn`
from the very beginning and following this during all the mapathons &
trainings we conduct. Not only that, all the other trainings & mapathons
organized by the community almost once a month practices the same modality.
So, just altering the long going practice might also impact the data
consistency & integrity.

3. On this point I also agree to what Tasauf Bhai mentioned.


Regards

*Sawan *
OSM Profile: Sawan Shariar <http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Sawan%20Shariar>
<http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Sawan%20Shariar>


On Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 10:18 PM <talk-bd-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Discussion: Issues with name localization for Bangladesh
>       (Aftabuzzaman Ullah)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 16:17:44 +0000
> From: Aftabuzzaman Ullah <aftabuzzamanullah at gmail.com>
> To: Sajjad Hossen <sajjadsapan at gmail.com>
> Cc: Nasir Khan <nasir8891 at gmail.com>, talk-bd at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-bd] Discussion: Issues with name localization for
>         Bangladesh
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CANgy_Jw3Kc3axOXqHTrio_QL9J9J7P567ZWBUu6Lp4D2+jRRUA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello  Sajjad, I already said when i was new editor i made mistake & i fix
> most of them, if you find any comment in that changeset i will fix.
> localization isn't uniform all over world but i tried to used general rule
> which we should use, local language as primary name, this is also many many
> countries did who has similar complex scripti & that is i'm requesting
> here. Rendering problem in some app is fixalbe but use english to fix for
> now isn't correct way. Future sustainability isn't mean we need to use
> english for primary name, as far i know OSM isn't english language
> maps/data even if it run by non-Bangla speaking. Most of bangladesh data
> has english name, running data analysis or eding maps isn't impossible.
> You said Google maps but just one thing is google doesn't prioritize any
> language. By default (without login) Google use browser language to show
> the maps language (You can also change that in your google profile). If
> browser languge is in english, google show both langugae for Bangladesh
> map; if browser language is in Bengali, google show only Bengali for
> Bangladesh map (english if bangla name doesn't avilable). It would be great
> if OSM also have same type of system.
> Thank you.
>
> সোম, ২৫ নভেম্বর, ২০১৯ তারিখে ২:৩৬ PM টায় এ Sajjad Hossen <
> sajjadsapan at gmail.com> লিখেছেন:
>
> > Dear  Aftabuzzaman Ulla <aftabuzzamanullah at gmail.com>h,
> >
> > Myself Sajjad, involved with OSM Bangladesh community since 2013. The
> > thing which is being prioritized here is the conflict regarding the
> > localization of the map contextualized to Bangladesh. First of all, from
> my
> > experience; around the world where the osm communities are mostly active
> > they maintain internal communication for any kind of decision making
> > localized to their region. They go through a more coordinated approach.
> As
> > far as I've seen, you are conducting all your activities without even
> > establishing a communication with the OSM Bangladesh community. There are
> > rules written regarding the osm data format in its platform, but it does
> > not mean that it is uniform all over the world. There will be always a
> > local context. Developing a map database is not one man army show. You
> are
> > emphasizing writing the name in Bangla but there was supposed to build a
> > communication with the community to choose the best possible option!
> > Moreover, you are making errors in many cases that are causing issues
> with
> > the map rendering. When creating a name in the map database, you are
> using
> > three tags but in most cases, two name tags are used even in the most
> > popular map platform Google. One has to consider the use cases, not just
> to
> > think in a cornered way! For example, in Google platform they prioritize
> > English name then Bangla, both are shown in the map visual; whoever needs
> > to use it can use it easily whether in Bangla or English! Adding Bangla
> > name is not the fact, the fact is the data adding structure! Simply if
> you
> > are asked to run an analysis on the data set of China, can you imagine
> what
> > will be your situation? The people who are mostly supporting and
> developing
> > the OSM platform mostly belong to the non-Bangla speaking region even
> now!
> > So the data structure should be proper for the future sustainability of
> the
> > platform. It seems better to maintain a coordinated approach, rather than
> > just continuing the logical discussion!
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> > Sajjad Hossen Sapan
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 5:43 PM Nasir Khan <nasir8891 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Dear Frederik,
> >>
> >> Thank you for your email.
> >>
> >> Here is the response to your questions. I am a long term contributor to
> >> be Bengali Wikipedia and founding member of Wikimedia Bangladesh
> Chapter. I
> >> am the Bangladesh lead of Creative Commons. I am also involved in a
> number
> >> of open source projects by contributing code, content, documentations
> and
> >> more.
> >>
> >> 1. English is not being used for day to day conversations in Bangladesh.
> >> But people use to use different English words in conversations. On the
> >> other hand internet users have a minimum misunderstanding on English you
> >> can get an idea from the top sites from Alexa [1]. Apart from the news
> >> sites most of them are English websites, though many of them have
> Bengali
> >> version and/or localization options.
> >>
> >> For me it is better to write changeset in English. Most of the time
> >> changesets are checked by the contributors and not my by the mass users.
> >> Sometimes the contributors are from across the world and if each
> >> contributor describe changes in their own language then do you think it
> >> would be possible to understand each other or it would be helpful for
> >> collaboration?
> >>
> >> By law business signboards should be written in Bengali. But only a
> >> limited number of business are doing so. Recent time Bengali and English
> >> are being displayed side by side. For street signs Bengali and English
> are
> >> used in almost all cases. As you live outside Bangladesh you can check
> >> Mapillary [2] or Google Street View to check the real scenario. By the
> way
> >> i saw Bengali text are not being rendered properly in the Mapillary
> >> website.
> >>
> >> I believe the skill of communicating in English of the people of age 50+
> >> are same across the world. You mentioned about Germany, it is same here
> in
> >> Bangladesh as well.
> >>
> >> 2. This topic is not relevant with this thread, i think we can discuss
> >> this on a separate thread.
> >>
> >> 3. I agree with Tasauf bhai and i think he describes the general
> >> practices properly.
> >>
> >> Please do understand that the topic we are discussing here is to
> >> establish a common standard for now. It is not about establishing or
> >> against any individual or opinion nor it is a lifetime decision. As a
> >> community we can change when necessary. I am proposing to use English in
> >> `name` and `name:bn` and `name:en` should be added separately. Because i
> >> found it would be much more helpful for the users and contributors as
> well.
> >> There are a number of use cases of the OSM and we should go to the
> >> direction where most of the cases can be covered.
> >> I can write everything in Bengali and i have to think what percentage of
> >> user will get benefited by doing so! For example i use Mapillary and
> >> OpenStreetCam [3] to see the street level images. None of these can
> render
> >> the Bengali text. So me or other community member can communicate with
> >> these organizations and request them to fix the tool or we can build a
> new
> >> tool. Both of these need time so what could be done now? stop using
> these
> >> services or what else?
> >> Any one can say that OSM based tools can be fixed easily. But till today
> >> it has not been fixed i gave an example above and there are more, so it
> is
> >> not that easy too (might be a issue of technology or initiative). So we
> >> should push the tool developers to make it compatible for Bengali and
> also
> >> contribute to fix those too. But now it is not the right time to do
> >> everything in Bengali.
> >>
> >> regards
> >> Nasir Khan
> >>
> >>
> >> [1] - https://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/BD
> >> [2] - https://www.mapillary.com
> >> [3] - https://openstreetcam.org
> >> --
> >> *Nasir Khan Saikat*
> >> www.nasirkhn.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 at 09:53, Tasauf A Baki Billah <
> tasauf1980 at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Frederik,
> >>>
> >>> Hope this finds you well. Great to hear from you!
> >>>
> >>> I'm Tasauf aka Ribin  from OSM Bangladesh community. You might remember
> >>> me having a discusion with you about data quality, possible vandalism &
> >>> your advice on that  at Heidelberg during SotM. However, I have been
> >>> involved with OSM in Bangladesh since 2014 & now leading the
> community's
> >>> coordination groups. I'm also a board member  of HOT.
> >>>
> >>> Just to clear up you queries one by one:
> >>>
> >>> 1. Most of the people in Bangladesh using internet/map understands the
> >>> names written in English as English is the second language used from
> the
> >>> primary education system. Though in case of writing they preffer to
> write
> >>> it as Bangla on Roman script as using bangla keyboard is not yet much
> >>> popular for the general population.
> >>>
> >>> The population under 50 mostly using internet considering both high &
> >>> avarage educated people do understands & can communicate in basic
> English
> >>> while in written but while speaking Bangla is the native. But also
> have to
> >>> keep in mind a good bit of english word stock is found on the
> >>> conversations. People over 50 unless educated are not that much of
> popular
> >>> user of internet/ maps. We are still on a verge to institutionalize
> Bangla
> >>> in our official use but not even at the half of the way.
> >>>
> >>> Personally I would love to see Bangla everywhere but using Bangla is
> >>> more of an argument of emotion than use case for us for the time being
> &
> >>> having changeset discussions/ tagging in Bangla is a good to have
> rather
> >>> than a necessity in this stage. Also to keep in mind, even the
> translation
> >>> engines often have ambiguous/ inappropriate results as not a lot being
> done
> >>> at backend.
> >>>
> >>> Most of the signages on the roads of the city Uses both English &
> Bangla
> >>> on them, though a significant number has only English nameplates.
> There are
> >>> a few only Bangla signboards too visible. If you go to the rural part
> you
> >>> will find more only Bangla signage appearing on the scenerio.
> >>>
> >>> 2. OSM was introduced in Bangladesh back in 2011. The more coordinated
> >>> community based approach started from 2015 and OSM Bangladesh
> Foundation
> >>> has been legally formed & registered at 2018. As of now anyone
> contributing
> >>> to OSM in Bangladesh is considered a member of the foudation though a
> >>> coordination board is present for handling the legal & organizational
> >>> proceedures while a team of 45+ mappers/developers mostly known as
> "BHOOT"
> >>> s are coordinating the technical, data & volunteer engagement part. The
> >>> foundation remains open to any individual suggesting / get involved on
> the
> >>> regular discussions. The State of the Map Asia held in Dhaka is hosted
> by
> >>> the foundation earlier this month where 500+ osm contributors gathered
> >>> togather. Also, discussions being made to push OSMBDF applying under
> OSMF
> >>> local chapter for better calibration.
> >>>
> >>> The OSMBD community including the foundation itself  has been having
> >>> discussions/ updates channeled through the facebook group
> >>> https://www.facebook.com/groups/osmbd rather than the website itself.
> >>> So, going through that might give you better storyline.
> >>>
> >>> 3. As part of mailing list ettiquete you can eaither use the first or
> >>> last name of a person you want to address. Having Mr. On salutation
> with
> >>> the last name is more formal approach. Usually, in Bangladesh we put
> >>> Bhai(M) & Apu(F) after the first name as general casual referencing to
> a
> >>> person in group.
> >>>
> >>> Hope these resolves all the basic queries you have. Will gladly try to
> >>> cooperate more if you need any.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for being in touch.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Tasauf (Ribin)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, 5:05 am Frederik Ramm, <frederik at remote.org>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> the Data Working Group has been made aware of this discussion. I am
> from
> >>>> Germany and I have very little knowledge about Bangladesh, so I would
> >>>> initially like to ask three basic questions that will help me
> understand
> >>>> the situation:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. What is the status of English in everyday life in Bangladesh? Can
> >>>> everyone who uses the Internet also communicate in written English, or
> >>>> would a requirement of "please write your changeset comment in
> English"
> >>>> exclude certain parts of the population? Also, what about signage -
> will
> >>>> signs with street names or city names contain Bangla, English, or both
> >>>> names?
> >>>>
> >>>> For comparison, here in Germany, while nowadays most kids learn
> English
> >>>> at school, a significant portion of people who are 50 years or older
> >>>> would not be able to communicate in English unless they had higher
> >>>> education.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2. What is the relationship between the "OpenStreetMap Bangladesh
> >>>> Foundation" and the mapper community in Bangladesh? How many mappers
> are
> >>>> members in the OSMBDF? How can mappers join the organisation, and how
> do
> >>>> they democratically influence what the OSMBDF does? I checked the web
> >>>> site but I found no information about that.
> >>>>
> >>>> 3. A general question about mailing list etiquette. Is it usual, in
> >>>> mailing list discussions in Bangladesh, to refer to other participants
> >>>> with their last name? If you were to reply to my post with "Dear Mr
> >>>> Ramm", would that be (a) normal, (b) an expression of respect, or (c)
> an
> >>>> expression of "you are not part of my group so I will not use your
> first
> >>>> name"?
> >>>>
> >>>> Bye
> >>>> Frederik
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09"
> >>>> E008°23'33"
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>> Talk-bd at openstreetmap.org
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> >>>>
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