[OSM-talk-be] Boundary admin levels

[Ben Laenen]

On Friday 30 May 2008, Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> > Well, from what I know it's like this: communities are based on
> > geographical boundaries where they have certain powers like
> > education. These boundaries are defined by the language areas you
> > refer to below. So we have:
> > * Flemish community = Flemish Region and Brussels-Capital Region
> > * French community = Walloon Region and Brussels-Capital Region
> > minus the German-speaking Community
>
> So you substract a "community" from a "region".  It's like comparing
> apples to oranges.

I could give a list of municipalities in each of them, but I found this 
method slightly easier :-)

But as you wish, the German-speaking community is:
Amel
Büllingen
Burg-Reuland
Bütgenbach
Eupen
Kelmis
Lontzen
Raeren
Sankt Vith

List happily stolen from 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-speaking_Community_of_Belgium


> As far as I know, all powers the communities have is related to
> the person, not to where they live.

True, all territorial powers are for the regions, but communities can 
still only do things in well defined geographic areas (with some tiny 
exceptions I guess).

> I see no reason why the Flemisch community couldn't open a school in
> the Walloon region, or Walloon community a school in the German
> language area.  Just like there are all other kinds of schools.

I'm quite sure it's in the constitution somewhere. But I can't be 
bothered to look it up there :-)


> > Anyway, lots of talk just to say that the communities are
> > geographically well defined and not based on the individual people,
> > and thus make sense to map.
>
> I still don't agree.
>
> > > On the other hand, there are 4 language communities, the Dutch,
> > > the French, the bilangual Brussels-Capital and the German, and
> > > each municipality belongs to one of them.
> > >
> > > > 9: deelgemeenten/sections de municipalité
> > >
> > > This can already be difficult to map properly.  When things got
> > > split (in 1976/1977?) some parts of the old village got changed
> > > to an other municipality.  But you can probaly figure something
> > > about based on the old and new borders for the municipalities.
> >
> > The difficulty is just getting the boundaries from somewhere, but
> > they're well defined. They're also really needed in Antwerp where
> > the deelgemeenten have district status (yay, extra thing to vote on
> > in elections :-) ).
>
> I guess they could be defined with where the old border was and the
> new border is, and that the combination of those borders is the
> border of the a new deelgemeente/sections de municipalité that never
> was a village of it's own.  But I've actually seen references where
> it was just counted as one of the other deelgemeentes.


The borders of deelgemeenten are well defined, I don't know why you talk 
about the old borders. After all municipalities merged, these 
deelgemeenten were created and their borders were also updated.

Example for the municipality Heuvelland for example: 
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afbeelding:MapHeuvelland.svg

(we should find where the person who made the map got his data btw...)


> And it's hard to draw a line where it should be counted as something
> for level 9 or for level 10.  And if you say it's belonging to level
> 10, that region should probably still get added to some other region
> at level 9, and then the question is to which.
>
> I was also thinking that those levels can probably get mapped to the
> level of opengeodb.


> > As said above, Brussels-Capital Region belongs to both communities.
> >
> > But if we take the language areas then, what names would you use
> > for them then? AFAIK they don't have official names, since they're
> > not official country divisions...
>
> They are defined by the constitution:
>      * Art. 1
>        België is een federale Staat, samengesteld uit de
> gemeenschappen en de gewesten.
>      * Art. 2
>        België omvat drie gemeenschappen : de Vlaamse Gemeenschap, de
>        Franse Gemeenschap en de Duitstalige Gemeenschap.
>      * Art. 3
>        België omvat drie gewesten : het Vlaamse Gewest, het Waalse
> Gewest en het Brusselse Gewest.
>      * Art. 4
>        België omvat vier taalgebieden : het Nederlandse taalgebied,
> het Franse taalgebied, het tweetalige gebied Brussel-Hoofdstad en het
> Duitse taalgebied.
>        Elke gemeente van het Rijk maakt deel uit van een van deze
>        taalgebieden.
> [...]
>      * Art. 5
>        Het Vlaamse Gewest omvat de provincies Antwerpen, Limburg,
>        Oost-Vlaanderen, Vlaams-Brabant en West-Vlaanderen. Het Waalse
>        Gewest omvat de provincies Henegouwen, Luik, Luxemburg, Namen
> en Waals-Brabant.
>
> But they do not have a government like the communities and regions.

Ah, you were bothered to look things up in the constitution :-)

Well, I'll look up the constitution myself then...


<constitution>
Onderafdeling I:
 De gemeenschapsbevoegdheden
Art. 127
 
 § 1. De Parlementen van de Vlaamse en de Franse Gemeenschap regelen, 
elk voor zich, bij decreet :
 1° de culturele aangelegenheden;
 2° het onderwijs, met uitsluiting van :
 a) de bepaling van het begin en het einde van de leerplicht;
 b) de minimale voorwaarden voor het uitreiken van de diploma's;
 c) de pensioenregeling;
 3° de samenwerking tussen de gemeenschappen, alsook de internationale 
samenwerking, met inbegrip van het sluiten van verdragen, voor de 
aangelegenheden bedoeld in 1° en 2°.
 
 Een wet aangenomen met de in artikel 4, laatste lid, bepaalde 
meerderheid, stelt de in 1° vermelde culturele aangelegenheden, de in 
3° vermelde vormen van samenwerking, alsook de nadere regelen voor het 
in 3° vermelde sluiten van verdragen vast.
 
 § 2. Deze decreten hebben kracht van wet respectievelijk in het 
Nederlandse taalgebied en in het Franse taalgebied, alsmede ten aanzien 
van de instellingen gevestigd in het tweetalige gebied 
Brussel-Hoofdstad die, wegens hun activiteiten moeten worden beschouwd 
uitsluitend te behoren tot de ene of de andere gemeenschap.
</constitution>

And now read §2 very good :-) So in short there's the reason why the 
Flemish community cannot have a school in the Walloon Region.

Of course, Belgium is Belgium so in article 129 a few exceptions are 
possible if specific laws are passed. More exactly in the 
municipalities with facilities. But a Flemish school in Liège in not a 
possibility.

And to be complete: article 130 says:

<constitution>
§ 1. Het Parlement van de Duitstalige Gemeenschap regelt bij decreet : 
[...]

§ 2. Deze decreten hebben kracht van wet in het Duitse taalgebied.
</constitution>

So, any questions? :-)

Greetings
Ben