[OSM-talk-be] Busroutes

Sat Nov 13 08:53:55 UTC 2010

2010/11/13 Jo <winfixit at gmail.com>

> I tend to agree with you as far as creating child relations for the routes
> goes. It was an experiment of mine. There is no support for it in the
> editors, nor the renderers, so I'll probably let it go. It seems like a more
> maintainable way to do things, to me, but I'm standing alone in this. An
> other way of doing it, might be 'proto-relations' and 'routeparts', which
> get converted to the route relations by a script.
>

The main reason to not use child relations is because the maintenance is
difficult for other users.

>
> Concerning those 4-digit numbers of the lines. They can be found on those
> displays which are meant for the drivers (only in the bigger terminals). By
> naming the routes De Lijn xxxx, all the bus routes of De Lijn get sorted
> together in the relations subwindow. You complain about people starting new
> routes, when a route already exists, well this was already happening. (395
> is one that I found yesterday). Naming them in an unambiguous way and
> sorting them all together, will avoid people creating route relations more
> than once.
>

A good idea to avoid double relations. But who will search for "De Lijn
33008" ? I suppose other people will search for "bus 8 Bertem".

>
> I don't agree concerning the route per direction of a bus line. This is the
> best way to unambiguously indicate where the buses are travelling. I just
> added line 179 between Etterbeek and Leuven (Fast bus that only runs on
> Fridays and Sundays between VUB and Hamont). The two directions of this line
> are almost completely separate (since it travels over Bvd. Général Jacques
> then E40, then the ring of Leuven). By creating a route per direction, one
> obtains a long sequence of consecutive segments. By combining the 2
> directions, this is not possible.
>
> That is one good reason, but for me it is important that i can find "real
information" at a bus-stop. That means that i can see if the bus at that
bus-stop goes to Etterbeek OR to Leuven. So i am also convinced we need 2
separate relations for this 2 reasons.

> We are not simply creating a graphical map, we have to think of being able
> to use this data for routing eventually. Even when today this is not
> possible yet.
>

Even on a graphical map we need to have all bus-stops and the relations
(directions).

>
> Jo
>
>
>
> 2010/11/13 Gerard Vanderveken <Ghia at ghia.eu>
>
> I think you are making it all too complicated.
>>
>> For most bus routes only 1 relation is sufficient.
>> There is no reason for doubling all routes by default.
>>
>> Also making relations members of other relations is a mistake.
>> The data of OSM is flat and not layered.
>> See also Members of a route:
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route#Members
>> These are only ways (routes) and stops (points).
>>
>> Also the renderers do not take into account these child relations:
>>
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=50.8752&lon=4.6983&zoom=14&layers=M&relation=1269869
>> Even not the demo project for public transport routes..
>>
>> http://3liz.fr/public/osmtransport/index.php?country=Belgium&location=Overijse
>> - drag map to Leuven - click + buslines - click null
>>
>> Also when you request info of a street or stop, you see immediate which
>> routes are passing  and you do not need to click all relations to see if
>> they contain other routes.
>>
>> We should only map the permanent location of a route.
>> Temporary deviations are not needed. If a traveler goes to the stop, he
>> will retrieve an info board of De Lijn saying that the halt is
>> suspended/replaced.
>>
>> For alternatives and variations there is an alternative tag.
>> For shorter routes, it is up to the traveler, to inform him on the times
>> when the bus services the required stops.
>>
>> For the time being, there are no good possibilities to incorporate
>> shedules etc in OSM.
>> Making some preparations to facilitate this is futile, because this
>> surpasses the normal mapping properties. Probably the needed data and/or
>> its form will also be determined by the application that will make them
>> available.
>> You could for example starting by using the opening hours tag and thus
>> indicating for a bus stop all the times when a bus passes.
>> Then you envisage a lot of problems:  the stop can be serviced by
>> several lines, there are normal days and school days, night bus, ...
>> To have all this in one tag or several tags, makes always a big list of
>> data, which will be to entered very punctual to be usable.
>> And the question is of any application, will be able to make good use of
>> it and not require another format.
>>
>> To support this manually is impossible. To import it, you need clearence.
>> To show it, you need applications.
>> None of them are for the moment envisaged, so a link to the webaddress
>> of the routes its dienstregeling will be at the time being the best to
>> offer eg:
>> http://reisinfo.delijn.be/dienstregelingen/
>> Also the amount of data is also substantial, which may not be desired to
>> incorporate it yet at this time.
>>
>> Also the last days, the names  of the relations are changed  with
>> internal numbers of  De Lijn.
>> This may confuse the user who will not retrieve the numbers as used on
>> the bus, road maps, stop signs, etc by De Lijn.
>> The name should be clear so that a user can easy retrieve ithe presence
>> of a route. (Else he could start to map again the line and afterwards
>> discover that his work was in vain)
>> Furthermore, I believe these data are not public available and retrieved
>> from an illegal database file, where we have no copyright to.
>>
>> So, I recommend:
>> - to use only one relation per route
>> - delete the doubles (backward routes).
>> - delete child relations and add their streets and stops to the main
>> relation
>> - use the displayed route numbering (=ref) in the name of the route.
>> - delete data were we have no copyright for.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
>
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-- 
Ivo De Broeck
Valleilaan 13
3360  Korbeek-lo
Tel (0)16 43 84 93
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