[OSM-talk-be] Fwd: Destination tagging on motorways

Wed Sep 10 22:27:14 UTC 2014

Hi André

<OSM GPS routers use destination
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination>=* not to compute the
routes, they can do without,  but to know what the drivers see on the signs
in order to use the same information in spoken instructions>

That's correct

<I'm not sure you can copy the pictures>

Google is a nice company, but they are not open. Their terms prohibit
copying contents pictures. But all it takes to get lane assistant in
Belgium is a few people who access motorways every now and then taking
pictures of the signs.

*<there is no name to use* for a GPS to call a motorway entrance.>

The OSM situation should reflect current signage: if there are no signs,
the destination tag should not be used

<The names on the signs are for those who drive without GPS and as a
reassuring double check.>

I've seen the upcoming of lane assistant somewhere in 2004. I think it's a
great feature. Every major navigation provider has it at the moment. Except
for Google, but they are going to get it, starting in the US.

<Shouldn't the same ref=* <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> as
of the motorway be used on all highway
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_link
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link>?>

If the motorway link has these signs, they can be used.

Cheers, Johan

2014-09-10 23:30 GMT+02:00 André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>:

>  On 2014-09-09 22:14, Johan C wrote :
>
> In Nederland heb ik de snelwegen op veel plaatsen voorzien van
> bestemmingen. Als bijrijder ben ik in de gelegenheid geweest om afgelopen
> maand de bebording op de route Breda-Antwerpen-Gent-Kortrijk-Lille vice
> versa te fotograferen. Die wil ik graag op de manier zoals ik die in
> Nederland heb getagd gaan taggen. Dat houdt het volgende in:
>
> In the Netherlands I have the highways in many places equipped
> destinations. As a passenger, I had the opportunity to be on the route
> Breda-Antwerp-Ghent-Kortrijk-Lille to photograph. Past month the boarding
> vice versa I would like the way I tagged in the Netherlands go tag them.
> That means the following:
>
>  - invoeren destination details conform de werkwijze op
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details,
> inclusief het invoeren van het afritnummer met de tag junction:ref
>
> - Enter destination details according to the procedure on
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Destination_details,
> including entering the exit number junction with the tag: ref
>
>
>  - het positioneren van de motorway_junction conform
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit,
> oftewel juist voor de doorgetrokken streep
>
> - het positioneren van de motorway_junction conform
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Lane_assist/Examples/Motorway_exit,
> oftewel juist voor de doorgetrokken streep
>
>
>  Het mooie van het toevoegen van de destinations is dat dit een stap is
> om een rijstrookassistent te krijgen in OSM. Mijn op OSM gebaaseerde Garmin
> is al in staat om de bestemmingen niet alleen weer te geven maar ook uit te
> spreken, wat erg handig is in drukke verkeerssituaties. Diverse andere OSM
> routeringsprogramma's ondersteunen de bestemmingen eveneens.
>
>  Ik wil graag meehelpen om ook andere Belgische snelwegen te voorzien van
> de bestemmingen, maar op sommige Belgische snelwegen kom ik erg weinig tot
> nooit. Zouden jullie kunnen helpen door het nemen van foto's van de
> bebording cq het opnemen van ritten op de snelwegen met een dashcam?
>
> The beauty of adding destinations is that this is a step to get into OSM.
> Lane guidance My OFM gebaaseerde Garmin has been able to show the
> destinations not only weather but also to speak, which is very convenient
> in traffic situations. Various other OSM routing programs also support the
> destinations.
>
> I would like to also help provide the destinations, other Belgian
> motorways but some Belgian highways I get very little or never. Could you
> help by taking pictures of the signage or the inclusion of journeys on
> motorways with a dashcam?
>
>  Hi Johan,
>
> As I understand it (1) OSM GPS routers use destination
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination>=* not to compute the
> routes, they can do without,  but to know what the drivers see on the signs
> in order to use the same information in spoken instructions (e. g. call a
> lane by its destination if possible).    Similarly for ref=*
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref>   and  name
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name>=*.
>
> I did not understand every word you wrote, but it looks like you want the
> content of the Destination signposting.  They are all here on Google
> Street View <https://maps.google.be/maps?>.  I'm not sure you can copy
> the pictures, but pictures is not what is necessary for OSM: what is
> written on the road signs is legal information and cannot be copyrighted.
>
> My survey.
>
> On E25.
> destination <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:destination>=* is not
> used anywhere and ref=* <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> is *not
> used* on highway <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=
> motorway_link
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link>.
> Hence, *there is no name to use* for a GPS to call a motorway entrance.
> For motorway exits, such a ref is useless but ref=*
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> is used all-right on highway
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_junction
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_junction>.
>
>   Shouldn't the same ref=* <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref>
> as of the motorway be used on all highway
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway>=motorway_link
> <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dmotorway_link>?
> On other major highways.
> name <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name>=* is used but the
> driver sees no (real) signs (plates) for it.
> ref=* <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:ref> is almost always
> present but the road sign (e.g. N30) is sometimes missing on the ground,
> which is annoying for the driver in a roundabout or at the fork to two main
> directions.
>
> I tried to contact the MET to report a few such cases, but they did not
> reply.
> *Does anyone know* how to signal the MET their mistakes or should we tag
> for the minister?
>
> On 2014-09-10 10:12, Sander Deryckere wrote :
>
>
> destination:lanes=Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach|Brno;Poysdorf;Mistelbach;Graz;Wien|Graz;Wien
> destination:ref:lanes=A5|A5;S1;A2|S1;A2
> destination:country:lanes=CZ|CZ;SK;H;SLO;I|SK;H;SLO;I
> destination:symbol:lanes=|airport|airport
>
> Are we really trying to hang ourselves?
>
>
> Let us think before such an extreme outcome :-)
>
> I'm not a lanes specialist, but it seems to me that lane drawing topology
> is enough for routing software to know and tell the driver which of the
> lanes (n°1, n°2, n°3) to take to get to another lane ahead.
> So, the question is: what should the GPS tell the driver (click, choose
> language, click loudspeaker):
>
>    - That  ???
>    <https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%0AGraz%3BWien%3B%0AS1%3BA2%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3BHungary%3BSlovenia%3BItaly%3B%0Aairport%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%0ABrno%3BPoysdorf%3BMistelbach%3B%0AA5%3B%0ACzechoslovakia%3B>
>    - or this ???
>    <https://translate.google.be/?#en/nl/Take%20a%20lane%20to%20S1%0A%0A.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%20.%0A%0ATake%20a%20lane%20to%20A5>
>
> Is it really necessary to make a mess by trying to spell/translate every
> place in/to every language (2)?
> Isn't it wiser to use only the (ref) numbering system devised and used for
> everybody's convenience?
> That's including OSM.
> I think that just the destination:ref is necessary, and only if it cannot
> be derived from topology.
> The names on the signs are for those who drive without GPS and as a
> reassuring double check.
> Or in the rare cases there would be no refs.
>
>  Anyway, that said, I'll never map anything with the :lanes extension
> myself, nor will I edit any such tag, but I you're willing to go through
> that painful process, I won't stop you.
>
>  (oh, and if you want cooperation for all Belgian highways, better also
> put your message in English or French).
>
> It worked ;-)
>
> (1) they can do without them. This is unfortunately badly explained once
> again.
> (2) I usually listen to Osmand in English.
> Easier to understand (must be my ear too) and sounding like navigating to
> the moon (add beeps).
> But the real fun is trying to understand French names pronounced à la
> English !!! :-)
>
>   André.
>
>    - Dutch - detected
>    - English
>    - French
>    - Russian
>
>
>    - English
>    - French
>    - Russian
>
>
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