[OSM-talk-be] TEC: what I did and why I stopped (long ago)

Tue Apr 7 19:46:06 UTC 2015

Hello Julien and TEC collaborators,

I finally decided to explain here why I stopped working for the TEC
project. 

        Mediocre result

I had almost totally mapped TEC line 65 (before the stops were announced
to be complete). I had made all the hard work finding where the TEC bus
stops are (1). I still needed to review the whole thing with aerial
maps, but while waiting for an illusive confirmation from TEC of about
10 bug reports I sent them,  I was giving myself a break and I was
playing with the GPX trace that I'm probably the only one to have made. 
I was having fun writing a program that analyzes GPX, automatically
detects where the car stopped, computes the average of the oscillating
stop position and makes a POI of it, all that displaying nicely in
JOSM.  The pre-alpha was producing amazingly good results for a first
try. (That program might analyze GPX data produced by a 60€ GPS
smartphone installed on the buses).

(1)  TEC's data can put them 100 m and more away from the true location,
even on another road. I had put most of them less that 5 m where they
are, and as carefully tagged as possible with shelter etc...

The fun was totally spoiled when Polyglot sent me an e-mail saying that
(without first contacting me in any way) he had made modifications to
many of my pending bus stops and that the schoolmaster or is it OSM
chief was not pleased.
He had posted the following public insults in what the OSM.org map
readers see when they look at my bus stops data (left pane).
We should try to explain to Polyglot that OSM is a geographic database
and not a database of insults.
> *reviewing all bus stops added for route 65. Performing conflation
> where required and improving positioning where needed. Why were 3
> versions necessary to get this mediocre result? *
> *routes for TEC 65, mapped properly, please, if somebody offers you to
> show how it's done, grab the opportunity to learn. Alternatively look
> at all the other routes this person already did over the past years **
> *
And maybe more.

What a sin to make 3 OSM updates for about 100 bus stops, isn't it! Read
below how many he made !!!
Regarding what the ignorant people we are must "learn" from the teacher,
I had asked before on the mailing list several questions and they were
never answered.
The tagging conventions are here
<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Conventions/Bus_and_tram_lines#Tagging>,
the answers should be there, and I did exactly what they say. 
Obviously, if we are commanded to look at other routes, their links
should at least be in those conventions.  Etc.

Being disgusted (and because it's alleged be a way to "learn"), I looked
at just a dozen of those so-called corrections, no more, I stopped out
of disgust.
Let us see what "mediocre result" means.
Mostly, they move by 2 m the bus stops that I had painfully found 50 or
100 m away and correctly moved.
Or they do such minor details.
Or they just introduce plain mistakes.

*Please* note that I do not disparage other people's work, quite the
opposite.
But when my work is disparaged, I compare.

*Please* let me make my final line 65 modifications of the following
before doing any more anyone.

In this place <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197984>, rue Hamal,
Polyglot made a slight position change of "Liège Opéra".
I was waiting for and I now have confirmation that this bus stop does
not exist.
I think that it was a temporary stop during the road works in 2009 and
that it was never removed from the map.
I am going to remove it, at least for line 65.
Is moving non-existing bus stops really a correction?
Which is a mediocre result?

This nearby <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197983>place is the
line terminus of 65 and, as I know it, quite logically the place where
the bus waits for passengers and starts.
I had put the line start where the buses start but Polyglot put it at
the non-existing stop <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197984>
here above.
Which is a mediocre result?

In this place <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955198000>, I put the
bus stop quite normally on the right side of the road.
Polyglot moved it to the left side, on the sidewalk behind the parking!
Now, TEC must buy English like buses with doors on both left and right
sides to service that stop !!!
Checking it today, I see that Polyglot has put it back where I had put
it (In 3 additional updates !!!)
Which is a mediocre result?

I was waiting confirmation that this bus stop
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955198001> does not exist.
Although that's indicated in a fixme, Polyglot moved once again a
non-existing bus stop. (I passed by that place and I didn't see any bus
stop with a careful look).
Are the bus stops moved just in order to write insults?
I will remove it.
Which is a mediocre result?

When I checked this stop <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197938>
with my GPS, I noticed a bus stop opposite.
I first thought that it belonged to line 65.
But a close look at the photo I took showed that it belongs to line 727.
So, it should be on the map, now that all bus stops are finished, but it
is not.
I will do nothing because it's not my line 65 matter.
Which is a mediocre result?

And so, I wondered if that stop opposite
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2955197938> did not belong to line
227 too.
And it does, I did see a 227 bus stopping there, but that's not
indicated in the tags.
Which is a mediocre result?

Near this bus stop <http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1645537259>,
Polyglot drew a shelter. Very nice.
But he did not shelter=yes in the stop.
I would probably have done that in my last review because I'm not doing
mediocre tagging.

Polyglot had written:
> If you insist on putting them [source=TEC 2014-04] on the objects,
> take the prepared osm file. Select all objects, and add the source tag
> you like.
I did put source=TEC 2014-04 in this bus stop
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464/history>, as an experiment,
to see what would happen.
What happened is that Polyglot removed it.
Regarding 3 updates, I had corrected the TEC position by more than 100m
and put the correct tags in 1 update; Polyglot used another one for that
freakish update. A third one will be needed to add the shelter he forgot.
What's the name of that game?  "Mediocre Results"?

Regarding the 3 updates insult, this bus stop
<http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/857875464/history> had correctly been
tagged and moved by 20m+ in *1 update* by Papou.  Polyglot used *2 more
updates*, and now 3, to move it by 2m and to remove source= again.
Really important and worth an insult !!!

I'm just back from totally different work where I happened to see 2 bus
stops 10m and 30m off their position.
And, how can one possibly insult other mapper when that line is going
contraflow (contra one-way) there !!!

I made 4 spelling corrections to the place names (see below). Polyglot
managed to reintroduce one of them in the line names.

Come with us and play the Mediocre Results game!

        History

Let us briefly recall what happened before that.
I shared Julien's enthusiasm by making a beta TEC_2014_04.osm import
file containing bus stops and lines.
I tried to start a so-called necessary discussion about tags, lines,
capitalization etc on talk-be and there was absolutely no reply.
Julien published
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Mapping_resources/TEC 
containing his suggestions and a reference to my file.
I discovered that Polyglot had silently replaced my name and file by his
and totally ignored what Julien had written in this document. He claimed
that he didn't find my file but he never asked (I had renamed it to
avoid misuse). I had made instructions to use my file; he erased them
and refused to make instructions for his.
I said that Polyglot's file should contain the TEC lines with their
numbers. My file did contain the lines.  They are necessary (for example
to avoid contraflow like I have found above). Polyglot refused because
"De Line's files do not contain lines" (and that maybe causes wrong
routes).  That may be too why line 227 stops are missing.
Let us notice that OSM presently contains bus stops but no lines (except
"mediocre" ones).  I wanted to add more nearby ones, correctly, but I
will not.
I offered my help to convert the place names to lowercase and fix the
accentuation and Polyglot refused it. My idea was to match the names
with those of nearby places of the OSM data.  Polyglot used Wikipedia
municipality names which, of course, miss the villages.  As a result,
for just one line I had to fix 4 names which the OSM map was displaying
differently for the village and for its stops inside.  Polyglot
reintroduced one mistake and there are more of them.
I said that the TEC data should obviously contain source=TEC 2014_04 so
that it can be queried (with overpass) which release they contain and
Polyglot obstinately refused such a mere request. TEC data is now at TEC
2014_07, even 2014_10 and probably later they say, which is unused, and
just wonder how you would differentiate a mix of 04 and 07 if it were.
Question: if someone were not fearing insults and introduced 2015 data,
how would he do that and how would the others know (with overpass)?
That essential question wasn't even considered.
In consequence, I thought that I would be more happy if I stopped trying
to organize TEC and limited myself to mapping a few lines.  But I wasn't
happy even so.  And I have the feeling that the same thing happened to
Julien.

I may write a second e-mail about the lines.

Best regards.

André.

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