[OSM-talk-be] Taalfaciliteiten + taalgrens + straatnamen

Wed Dec 2 14:06:20 UTC 2015

Much hanks Sander. Reading your mail, and especially the sentence 

"Of all streets in all those municipalities, around 91% had a name, but
only 26% had name:fr and name:nl tags. Such a low quality is really sad
to see." 

I would like us to propose the following community project : (for which
I would be happy to organize a meeting in Brussels to celebrate the end
and communicate to journalist whom we would meet) let us complete and
make sure we have, at least for those bilingual municipalities 100 %
coverage (= names in names:fr and names:nl) 

Could you please Sander post your lists of street names in a spreadsheet
like framacalc.org or a text file on a share location (ie github or
git.framasoft.org) and the URL to the elements (streets) in OSM for us
(the community) to help translate easily and effectively (looking at the
real names in the streets) in OSM ? 

We could do one commune/gemeente after the other and organize a
celebration in each commune with the elected representatives and the
associations, claiming "You have won, your commune is now fully
translated in OSM". 

We could also celebrate the fact that every street of the commune are in
OSM. 

Thereafter, with the communes and their offices, we could organize that
they internally use and invest into OSM : eg register in OSM all their
public buildings, post offices ,shops ... And then that they use OSM and
the related services to build the topic maps of the communes 

What do you think ? 

Regards, 

Nicoals 

Le 2015-12-02 14:24, Sander Deryckere a écrit : 

> 2015-12-01 19:46 GMT+01:00 Nicolas Pettiaux <nicolas at pettiaux.be>:
> 
>> I also tend to think that we should find a solution the let any user find the street with any name in Nominatim, especially in this bilingual region. I think that our united and peaceful Belgian OSM community can lead the way here again.
> 
> The problem with Nominatim isn't one of languages, it's one of boundaries. Nominatim is very hierarchical, and requires that one street only belongs to one municipality, and one house to one street. So when the streets are on the boundary, the houses are on different municipalities, which means Nominatim can't find half of them. 
> 
>> For example, I find particularly irritating to note that some commercial car guidance (often called "car gps") with included commercial maps or commercial mapping systems on the web, do offer the region of Brussels (which is bilingual but to a much larger extend French rather than Flemish) in Dutch / Flemish by default. And not a bilingual version which would be at least normal (for me)
>> 
>> Thanks for the work
> 
> Yes, that's not good. The language of Brussels should either be bilingual, or depend on the language settings of the user (which is possible when using vector data). So the situation for OSM in Brussels is good IMO (the name tag is bilingual, and there's data present to make a French or Dutch map when wanted).
> 
> But I wonder what to do with municipalities that have language facilities. Having language facilities doesn't mean they are completely bilingual, but that inhabitants have the option to use the other language. IMO, that's represented best by having only one language in the name tag, with translations in the name:lg tags (so search in that language works, and the map can be rendered in that language).
> 
> Meanwhile I did some statistical research on the different municipalities with language facilities (only the nl-fr ones, not the ones with German facilities or German ones with French facilities).
> 
> Of all streets in all those municipalities, around 91% had a name, but only 26% had name:fr and name:nl tags. Such a low quality is really sad to see.
> 
> In 46% of the streetnames, I could recognise a typical French element (tested on Rue, Chemin, Boulevard, Fausée and Avenue), and in 40% of the streets, I could recognise a typical Dutch element (tested on straat, weg, laan, dreef and baan). While only in 17% of the cases, I could recognise both a French and Dutch element (so use a combined name).
> 
> Now, I split the list up in categories: 6 Flemish language-border municipalities, 6 Flemish municipalities around Brussels and 4 Walloon municipalities. The situation differs a lot between those cases. I could recognise Dutch and French elements in 50% of the streets around Brussels, while only 3% in the other Flemish municipalities (vs 53% Dutch elements only), and 6% in the Walloon municipalities (vs 60% French elements only). The municipalities around Brussels also have a lot more name:nl and name:fr tags (70% vs 3% and 12%). 
> 
> So it looks like the municipalities around Brussels are almost completely bilingual, while the municipalities around the language border have a strong preference for their own language (and often even don't mention the other language). That's probably also the reason why I'm more fond of single-language naming convention: I'm a lot closer to municipalities like Mesen and Comines-Warneton, and I notice that the language facilities aren't used by most inhabitants.
> 
> But I do think we should unify both situations. It doesn't really make sense to have yet another kind of municipality.
> 
> Perhaps we should vote on it?
> 
> Regards, 
> Sander

-- 

Nicolas Pettiaux, phd - nicolas at pettiaux.be 
Dans une société libre, la connaissance est librement accessible à tous 
OpenForum.be [1] - où l'on discute OpenAccess et libre accès, les 2è
jeudi à 18h30 

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