[OSM-talk-be] Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2
hvdb
henke54 at gmail.com
Sun Feb 1 18:40:06 UTC 2015
my my ... what a 'discussion' over such a 'simple asking' .... ;P
so ... if i could get a map or some info, what should one do then, so that
it is ' legal' ... get a 'stamp' on such a map/papers , or something else ?
Also ... how should one post/map such map/info on OSM, to proof that it is
'OK' for the people of the city hall ?
2015-02-01 16:26 GMT+01:00 <talk-be-request at openstreetmap.org>:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time?
> (Sander Deryckere)
> 2. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels)
> 3. Re: How to map streets with limited parking time? (Andre Engels)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 13:18:59 +0100
> From: Sander Deryckere <sanderd17 at gmail.com>
> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking
> time?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CABUOUO8SrRODVgL5iUi4CufUSVAHc2FwkDt177bK5NWkYTW-Rg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright.
> There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter here.
> Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.
>
> We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive).
>
> The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials
> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"
> or even "a database" is.
>
> However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is
>
>
> - A collection of different records: there are different streets with
> data
> - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a
> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place
> (which is
> the intended purpose of this map)
>
> The Sui Generis right protects
>
> - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of
> streets is complete, and the information about those streets is complete
> - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification
> or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The
> information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the
> municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and
> rendering
> that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's
> similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess
> that governments just shouldn't have any servants.
>
> Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is given)
> the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a substantial
> part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's again both,
> since the information offered by the council is most likely of high
> quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high quantity.
>
> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge
> that this is a violation to the database rights,
>
>
> Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data is
> just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can compare
> the results with the existing council data and find differences. Examining
> those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just importing
> mistakes.
>
> As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more
> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such
> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally
> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's
> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.
>
> May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just claimed
> they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a result,
> brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft. Microsoft
> even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold than from
> their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our data (say
> Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e. Google)
> because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be copyrighted,
> so you can just copy from images like google maps.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Sander
>
> 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>:
>
> > Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and especially
> > the law.
> > The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not
> required
> > to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by one if
> > what you see on the map is correct.
> > Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not
> > where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you
> cannot
> > reproduce).
> > Same for the boundaries etc.
> >
> > André.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-be mailing list
> > Talk-be at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 15:12:22 +0100
> From: Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>
> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking
> time?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAGzCZ0qqPONcBaOWQ2CMUmZ1S3DA8UK9NofOxqXvWH6kCPsvmw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <sanderd17 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about
> copyright. There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't
> matter here. Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.
> >
> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive).
> >
> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials
> that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"
> or even "a database" is.
> >
> >
> >
> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is
> >
> > A collection of different records: there are different streets with data
> > Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a
> single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place (which is
> the intended purpose of this map)
> >
> > The Sui Generis right protects
> >
> > qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of streets
> is complete, and the information about those streets is complete
> > substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification or
> presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The information
> can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the municipal council.
> However, presenting it in a GIS database, and rendering that map takes
> time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's similar to about all
> tasks done by the municipal employees, and I guess that governments just
> shouldn't have any servants.
> >
> > Of those databases, it prohibits (except when written permission is
> given) the extraction of a substantial part of the database. Where a
> substantial part might be evaluated WRT quality or quantity. Here, it's
> again both, since the information offered by the council is most likely of
> high quality, and it's planned to extract all data, which is of high
> quantity.
> >
> > So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will
> judge that this is a violation to the database rights,
> >
> >
> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data
> is just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can
> compare the results with the existing council data and find differences.
> Examining those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just
> importing mistakes.
> >
> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more
> strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such
> advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally
> grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's
> not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.
> >
> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just
> claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a
> result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft.
> Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold
> than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our
> data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e.
> Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be
> copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Sander
> >
> >
> > 2015-02-01 12:46 GMT+01:00 André Pirard <A.Pirard.Papou at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> Once again, facts and information cannot be copyrighted, and especially
> the law.
> >> The drawing (a piece of art) cannot be reproduced but you are not
> required to phone the Town Administration for a survey and ask them one by
> one if what you see on the map is correct.
> >> Even the drawings of road signs is not copyrighted, and of course not
> where they are placed, even if you saw it on a photograph (that you cannot
> reproduce).
> >> Same for the boundaries etc.
> >>
> >> André.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Talk-be mailing list
> >> Talk-be at openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-be mailing list
> > Talk-be at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
> >
>
>
>
> --
> André Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2015 16:25:53 +0100
> From: Andre Engels <andreengels at gmail.com>
> To: OpenStreetMap Belgium <talk-be at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] How to map streets with limited parking
> time?
> Message-ID:
> <CAGzCZ0pExrafZt+f9QO_9r7dJMLd+KssDQ1f=
> Tmgva4yxn0EOQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:18 PM, Sander Deryckere <sanderd17 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > I have a feeling I'm repeating myself. We're NOT talking about copyright.
> > There's no copyright involved in this case. Copyright doesn't matter
> here.
> > Copyright isn't the reason why OSM exists.
> >
> > We're talking about Sui Generis database rights (
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_Directive).
> >
> > The problem with database rights is that there are only very few trials
> > that used it. So there are not many examples on what a "substantial part"
> > or even "a database" is.
> >
> > However, when interpreting the texts, you see that a database is
> >
> >
> > - A collection of different records: there are different streets with
> > data
> > - Possible to see one record at a time: seeing the parking time of a
> > single street makes sense when you're looking for a parking place
> (which is
> > the intended purpose of this map)
> >
> > The Sui Generis right protects
> >
> > - qualitative or quantitative data: it's both here. The amount of
> > streets is complete, and the information about those streets is
> complete
> > - substantial investment of time in either the obtaining, verification
> > or presentation of the contents: Here it's about presentation. The
> > information can simply be obtained by reading the decisions from the
> > municipal council. However, presenting it in a GIS database, and
> rendering
> > that map takes time. If you say there's no time involved, than that's
> > similar to about all tasks done by the municipal employees, and I
> guess
> > that governments just shouldn't have any servants.
> >
> > Read
>
> http://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBAMS:2011:CA4035
>
> "Ook het begrip ‘investering in de presentatie van de inhoud van een
> gegevensverzameling’ moet beperkt worden uitgelegd. Niet alle kosten voor
> de presentatie vallen daaronder, maar alleen die kosten die worden gemaakt
> om de databank de gegevens te kunnen laten verwerken."
>
> And further:
> "De door [A] ten slotte nog genoemde kosten voor het drukken van de
> handleidingen met de normtabellen (€ 3.000,-) en de tijdsbesteding voor de
> opname van de normgegevens uit de tabellen in P2O (volgens [A] twee weken
> fulltime werk per test), zijn naar het oordeel van de rechtbank - in
> verhouding tot de kosten van de ontwikkeling van een test in zijn geheel -
> niet als substantieel aan te merken"
>
> Would it really be more than 3000 Euros plus 2 weeks of a full-time
> employee to put these data in a GIS database?
>
> For more examples, the following were considered NOT to have a considerable
> investment (or at least, the companies behind them not to have shown
> considerable investment) by the Dutch judges:
> * The Dutch public broadcasting company's database of programs and their
> data
> * RyanAir's database of all its flight data
>
> THOSE are the kinds of database the discussion is about. NOT a map with
> some roads coloured and a legenda.
>
> So if a judges gets confronted with this issue, it's likely he will judge
> > that this is a violation to the database rights.
> >
> If he hasn't laughed you away already, he will very easily say that no,
> this is not a protected database.
>
>
> > Next to all my legal concerns, there's also the fact that surveyed data
> is
> > just better than imported data. When you surveyed a street, you can
> compare
> > the results with the existing council data and find differences.
> Examining
> > those differences can make both datasets richer, rather than just
> importing
> > mistakes.
> >
> Best is the enemy of good. Yes, surveyed data is better than imported, and
> combined data is better than either. But that's only the case if you have
> the choice. Imported data is better than no data. It is also better than
> data you know to be wrong.
>
> > As such, I strongly advise against using other maps, and I even more
> > strongly advise against advertising to use other maps. Evidence of such
> > advertisement (f.e. in this mailing list) might bring OSM into a legally
> > grey zone, in which corporations won't want to use the data anymore. It's
> > not only the legal part that matters. Also the social part.
> >
> There is no legally grey zone here. You are creating it yourself.
>
> > May I remind you of the legal issues around Android? Microsoft just
> > claimed they owned patents on some of the used technologies, and as a
> > result, brands shipping Android phones paid blackmail money to Microsoft.
> > Microsoft even made more revenue from the Android phones that were sold
> > than from their own phones. I don't think we want companies that use our
> > data (say Mapbox, Geofabrik, Mapquest, ...) to pay to some giants (f.e.
> > Google) because someone on this mailing lists says that data can't be
> > copyrighted, so you can just copy from images like google maps.
> >
> Now, that's a jump. From picking a few points of data from another source
> than your own eyes to wholesale copying of another source... If the only
> way to keep people from breaking database rights is by increasing its
> extend into the ridiculous and then once more, maybe the time has come to
> just stop using volunteers for this project.
>
>
>
> --
> André Engels, andreengels at gmail.com
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> End of Talk-be Digest, Vol 86, Issue 2
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