[OSM-talk-be] [Tagging] Literal translation of street names + defaults

[Jan Cnops]

Hi,

I think the question whether a name should be really translated depends
on the case. If, e.g., I would want an English-language map of Moscow I
probably would want it to mention the Red Square as such (and not
simply Krasnaya Ploshchad as simply transliterated name). On the other
hand, Big Theatre would be incomprehensible: I would want Bolchoi
Teatr. Where to stop translating is unclear. Take, still in Moscow, the
Uspensky Sobor, transliterated from Russian. I would want it to read
Uspensky Sobor on my map, others would want Uspensky Cathedral, and to
find it in Wikipedia in English you need Dormition Cathedral. It is in
the Kremlin, or should I say Kreml', as that is the Russian name?
Etcetera. General rule, according to me: if it is famous enough to be
referred to in English texts with a translated name, use that one,
parts of the name indicating what kind of thing it is ( ... Ulitsa for
... Street, ... Sobor for ... Cathedral) could be translated, leave the
rest unchanged or transliterated.

A final one: if someone with an English-language map of Brussels would
try to backtranslate 'Butchers' Street' into Dutch, they probably would
end up with Slagersstraat, while the actual name is Beenhouwersstraat,
Rue des Bouchers in French. Nobody would ever be able to direct you to
the Slagersstraat.

Greetings,

JanFi



André Pirard schreef op di 20-09-2022 om 00:51 [+0200]:
> On 19/09/22 12:36, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> > A user in my city (Zagreb) started translating street names into
> > English, and I don't know what to do about it. An example of
> > translation is Butcher Street for Mesnička ulica, or Stone Street
> > for Kamenita ulica. I found a few of these in Berlin, for example,
> > Straße der Erinnerung translated Road of Remembrance. These are
> > valid translations, but it isn't helpful for a map. If an english
> > user of our map saw "Road of Remembrance", she won't be able to
> > find that street sign, or explain to a taxi driver where she wants
> > to go.
> > 
> > I think I've seen someone talk against such translations, but I
> > can't find a wiki page that talks about it. I can create one if
> > there is consensus that this is wrong tagging. Or maybe just add a
> > few sentences about it on the name=* wiki page.
> > 
> > The problem is, he is doing valid work, so it feels wrong to just
> > delete it. Another way to deal with this is to create a new tag,
> > name:literal_translation:en=* or just literal_translation:en=*.
> > 
> > Another question, what is the right name:en=* in these cases, or is
> > there none? Erinnerung Road?
> > 
> > Thanks!
> > Janko Mihelić
>  Hi, thanks for writing.
> What you mean in the Subject is semantic translation, according to
> meaning.
> Literal, which is according to sounds, Bruxelles vs Brussels is
> valid.
> Those literal translations are many.
> And I find them useful for people using other scripts like Cyrillic,
> Arab, Greek, etc
> And sometimes funny too (1).
> The specialists of multi-language are Belgian people, I To: them.
> Legally, Brussels is French-Flemish bilingual.
> So, not only are the street names written in both language on the
> plates,
> but also the question's would be raised which is the OSM primary
> name.
> Look there, they have written both names in name=*
> and default_language=fr - nl.
> Also, there are other communities where the default language,
> although legally set, is disputed and OSM comes there as a trouble
> maker.
> I let the specialists talk if there is more to say.
> 
> (1) In my browser, I specified as accepted languages  en fr ... ru
> ...
> When Nominatim finds in a French speaking place name=frnam
> name:ru=runam
> it will write it runam to me because it found no suitable name:fr=
> default_language=fr should be used to imply name:fr=frnam in this
> case.
> Proposed features/Defaults should be used to set default_language in
> one place and in all places administratively below it. This is more
> important than many things discussed here.
> But that proposition should be reworked and voted. Many contributors'
> comments I used to read about it did not understand its goal or found
> it unaesthetic which is not its purpose, etc.
> If it was voted, for example the default speed limit could be set
> differently in Wallonia and Flanders with two tags instead of
> specifying each Flanders road's limit and forgetting some.
> 
> All the best, 
> 
> André.
> 
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