[Talk-ca] Trans Canada Trail relation
Sam Vekemans
acrosscanadatrails at gmail.com
Mon Sep 21 22:15:18 BST 2009
Hi Adam, Richard, talk-ca list.
cc: info at tctrail.ca, Tim Hoskin, National Trails Coordinator for TCT, Jane
Craig, Communications Coordinator for TCT, and Margaret Mofford, Secretary,
Trans Canada Trail
***
On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 8:56 AM, Adam Glauser <adamglauser at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I was cleaning up some areas where the TCT shares its path with roads
> and other existing trails (here http://osm.org/go/ZXnePd73--, if you are
> interested).
>
> It appears that there used to be a relation, which was part of a mass
> deletion recently (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/146837).
> Should this relation be resurrected, a new one created, or something
else?
Hey, Sam! Adam found something with our fingerprints on it! ;-)
Adam, the history here
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/146837/history
shows that this was deleted deliberately by andrzej as the relation
had no members. The discussion andrzej referenced in his delete
comment (How very polite, by the way!) asked about the validity of
relations or ways with no members as a data quality / validity
question. So I think andrzej deletion should stand for now.
Earlier in the history Sam (acrosscanadatrails) says I asked him to
remove his earlier work. I don't recall the details of the
conversation, but I probably did. That Adam found part of the
relation in Ontario. Sam's earlier additions in that history
discussed trail portions in BC.
Sam do you recall the details? Should this relation be replaced,
without members or 'fixed' with members added?
Best regards,
Richard
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
****
Ya, just list that local trail with it's local name, as a relation but as a
local or regional route. You should see physical signs saying "Laurel
Trail" and/or 'Iron Horse Trail'. Just map these 2 trails as 'routes' and
if they are cycle-able, the preference is to list it as a cycle-route, in
that area of the country. IMO. ... if the Trail is a 'Route' then a
'route' can go on any surface type. But the actual gravel/paved segments
should be labeled as they physically are (and physically named) on the
ground. No 'Trans Canada Trail' relation is needed. (until the
copyright is fixed, see MEGA detail below).
In Capital Region District (Victoria) the Galloping Goose is an excellent
example of how to map a regional route. (note that surface is not defined,
because it is mixed)
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/19895
***
Thanks Adam for pointing that out.
In short, I fixed up the wiki to show about Trans Canada Trail
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Trans_Canada_Trail
****
In long, unfortunately this week is the Trans Canada Trail AGM, where i am
unable to attend in person. Where my aim was to address this VERY issue.
And unfortunately, (for some reason) Tim Hoskin was unable (and still is) to
email me directly. (He probably did email me, but it didn't go through at
his end. Actually back in May he probably emailed me, but it didn't go
through. Leaving me to the assumption that my email was not received. It
would have helped a great deal to have heard from him at that time, then i
would have made plans to actually go to Ottawa, as i would have a 'fuller'
understanding of the Trans Canada Trail and its history, where they plan on
being in the future.
I do have a nice LONG letter that i am thinking of sending to the Trans
Canada Trail, along with my proxy vote (and voting 'no'), as i feel that the
Trans Canada Trail is not providing alternate routes, and has no plans on
listing the bi-pass route and temporary alternates, and is not technically
navigable for 1 user, which is not what the original intention of the Trans
Canada Trail is. (from my understanding). ... but i am hesitant to send it
along, as i don't know if it will make a difference, and instead might just
frustrate people more than I already have.
Basically, what it is, is that i have a hard time understanding what this
"Trans Canada Trail" actually IS. I cannot say that it is a "bicycle
route", nor can i say that it is a "hiking route" nor is it a "snowmobile
route", or a "equestrian route" as it is in fact a 'Greenway'. (so in
short, listing it as a 'NCN' would not be correct)
Here is Charles-Andre's answer to me. (which i needed clarification on),
and i attached my original email to.
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Charles-Andre Roy <CARoy at tctrail.ca>
Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 10:08 AM
Subject: RE: Across Canada Trails - or TCT 'route' across Canada
To: Sam Vekemans <acrosscanadatrails at gmail.com>
Hi again Sam,
For your question about our vision for the trail is quite simple. We are
focusing on multi-purpose greenway trail that support some combination of
walking/hiking, cycling, horseback riding, skiing, canoe and snowmobiling
wherever possible and appropriate. Our objective is to link all across
Canada from coast to coast to coast.
Now, how do we do it? We don't do 1 single track for hiking, 1 single track
for cycling, 1 single track for canoe. It will take much more time than it's
taking right now. It's why we are linking communities together instead of
linking trail uses. It was like that since the beginning. Of course, if we
could have 1 track for each use, it will be awesome.
Hope it answers you question
Have a nice day
Charles-André Roy
sentier Transcanadien - Trans Canada Trail
Coordonnateur en SIG
GIS Coordinator
514-485-4345
1-800-465-3636 Ext. 4345
Naviguez le sentier - Navigate the Trail
www.tctrail.ca/tlocator
-----Original Message-----
From: samvekemans at gmail.com [mailto:samvekemans at gmail.com] On Behalf Of Sam
Vekemans
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 16:06
To: Charles-Andre Roy; Info; Jane Craig; Tim Hoskin
Subject: Across Canada Trails - or TCT 'route' across Canada
Hi Trans Canada Trail,
I'm just going over all of the pdf maps again.
I realize that you (most likely; probably; maybe?) already have plans
on creating a mapbook, right?
Im still lost on your vision for the trail.
Will it be a 'single continious greenway' or a network of navigatable
routes'? Where the intended purpose is just to connect communities,
and not connect trail uses?
Im studing the map, and i cant see how 1 recreational type can make
use of the full trail, when there is only 1 signed route with all
mixed surface types.
Because i am able to use openstreetmap, i can list ALL of the route
(or routes) with the help of hundreds of volunteers on EVERY section
of the trail. -to make it fully usable. (a distinct route for each
trail user)
So i need to know what the official word is, then i will know if i can
list the routes as 'Across Canada Trails - hiking; mtb;road
bike;horse;atv route' or 'Temporary Trans Canada Trail - hiking
route;mtb;roadbike;horse;atv'.
Then i can move forward in my efforts for an 'official' proposal.
I would like to be able to publish your 'official statement' on my
website & on the 3rd page of my book.
I look forward to hearing from you soon,
As a curtesy, im still waiting to hear from you before i turn to
Canadian Trails Federation & National Trails Coalition and present my
project. (if its not already in plans for a national trail network
-were im not in the 'loop' as they dont know i can help them). As well
i am waiting to contact other groups. -cause i dont want to be
undermining efforts of TCT.
Thanks,
Sam Vekemans
Across Canada Trails
*****
So as you can read, the message is still rather 'vague', since the TCT is
just a 'trail-link' regardless of it's actual usage.
The implications of this are IMMINENCE because if someone wanted to Bike
Across Canada, say with an expedition touring/trekking bike. .. They simply
cannot. By definition, this is not what the Trans Canada Trail is. Nor is
it what the Trans Canada Trail offers.
I, on the other hand, have something to offer to these people who want to
actually navigate the Trans Canada Trail, by each type of recreation.
Since i understand that cyclist cant take the full route, and many segments
are not complete. What i can offer is a way to 'COMPLETE' this national
trail, so that it is usable by all recreations, where people know where to
go. I offer a GPS Guide which shows exactly what routes to take for each
type of recreation. (i produced the 1st version of it with my 'unofficial
Trans Canada Trail GPS Map
http://mapcenter2.cgpsmapper.com/mapview.php?id=1882)
However, i decided that if i were to continue, it might be ill-advised,
because my routing of the "Across Canada Trails", (humbly speaking), could
technically become more popular than the Trans Canada Trail. The Website,
and the books only cover a small portion of what the "Across Canada Trails"
will cover. (BTW, i have had over 53,000 downloads of the map, even as a
simple draft as it is)
Since i still don't have a direct answer, and don't know if the Trans Canada
Trail has any plans in the future to actually become usable, rather, as
'Routes' rather than trying to become an actual 'trail'. As we all know
that it's really basic concept (sorry to be blunt)
When you want to make a Trail Across Canada, what you need to start with is
a 'temporary alternate route' where this route is physically signed, and
listed as 'only temporary' until a dirt path, gravel trail, or paved
cycleway can be re-directed to the official route.
However, NO this cannot happen. That is because the 'official routing'
remains copyrighted and is actually under the jurisdiction of each of the
provinces to decide what this routing will be. ... and not the way that the
TCT are going about it.
*******
So here I am, i have this great idea, where i can actually go around and
help out the Trans Canada Trail so then these 'temporary alternate routes'
can become physically signed. so then people will actually be able to
navigate the trail. Yet, i still hear no response from the Trans Canada
Trail. Instead, i hear that they are planning on creating their own
(independent track-sharing website, much like bikemap.net) yet it will only
hold Trans Canada Trail segments. Designed as a portal for just the Trans
Canada Trail. (subcontracted? I think they have been had, since most
everything out there is available for free. ... Similarly to why people pay
for MS Office when OpenOffice is out there for free).
However, because the Trans Canada Trail is actually just the 2nd name of
each local trail, these local trails will become listed on OpenStreetMap, as
local cycling routes or local hiking routes anyway. And these tracks will
be (and many are already available on bikemap.net and the other sites. Just
that the name 'Trans Canada Trail' is not mentioned that much. (due to it's
inconsistency of purpose)
....
So I can (and have) sent in my resume, and offered to help, as they can
leverage this power of OpenStreetMap, and if they don't want to use
OpenStreetMap, that's fine too, as i can leverage this power, and pull the
GPS Tracks from OSM, and teach people how to update OSM to list their local
routes.
AND I offered to offer my help, where i can actually be a TCT- official
representative, and create a user profile on all these Track-sharing
websites, where these segments of Trans Canada Trail, can actually be
published, with a link back to the tctrail.ca website page of that trail
piece. ... thus, solving the problem of people not knowing where this
trail is.
And so, ... im still waiting to hear back. (probably, because of my open
frustration) they don't want to hire me, :-) ... lol, i can see why. :-)
That's fine. So what i offer as a way to help is that I can go ahead and
market my 'Across Canada Trails' paved route across Canada. Where this
route gets listed as the 'Proposed status' and the material that gets
printed, would just-so-happen, to show dirt-trails and gravel trails which
are usable as day-trip routes and loop-routes.
....
Anyway, here's the official response with regards to 'OpenStreetMap'.
Unfortunately, this was based on an internal discussion, where know one was
present who actually understood what OpenStreetMap actually is. (my guess is
that they thought that it was my own independent project, and didn't look at
the website in detail). (this was AFTER meeting Deborah Apps in person, and
talking to Charles-Andre on the phone)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Charles-Andre Roy <CARoy at tctrail.ca>
Date: Thu, Jul 16, 2009 at 9:56 AM
Subject: GIS Data Internal Review
To: Sam Vekemans <acrosscanadatrails at gmail.com>
Hi Sam,
Hope everything is going well on your side. Sorry for the delay but I was
first in a health recovery (from a bike accident) and then in a vacation for
my moving.
For the OpenStreetMap project, we can’t provide our data for that project.
We are actually restructuring our GIS Data to make sure that the data we are
providing to users is accurate. This step is essential for us to have the
big picture of our trail (where we are), and where and how we want to move
forward. It’s the status at TCT right now. We don’t know at this time how
much time the reorganization of our database will take.
Thanks to understand the process we are doing at TCT actually
Have a nice day
*Charles-André Roy*
sentier Transcanadien - Trans Canada Trail
*Coordonnateur en SIG***
*GIS Coordinator*
*514-485-4345*
*1-800-465-3636 Ext. 4345*
Naviguez le sentier - Navigate the Trail
www.tctrail.ca/tlocator
*****
So that's basally where I'm at now. For now, i recommend that the
tctrail.ca is OFF LIMITS for use with OpenStreetMap. And for my 'Across
Canada Trails - Paved route idea' The safest bet is that i just hold out
until i (eventually) here something from the Trans Canada Trail, and see
what my guidelines will be for it.
I don't see a problem which continuing what i started, see Tofino -
Ucluelet start.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=49.052&lon=-125.25&zoom=9&layers=00B0FTF
And of (course) i would make a detailed wiki-page explaining what this is,
and why the talk-ca community will accept it :-) HOWEVER, for now, like I
said to the Trans Canada Trail, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and
get an 'official response' before proceeding.
Until then, I continue with the Canada Import, as there is lots to do (and
this Trans Canada Trail frustration has been taking up lots of my time),
... so me showing up at the AGM, would not actually help. (I can only help
those who ask me questions, and want to know the answers). So maybe for
next year, i will be able to share with them this 'Across Canada Trails'
route. and keep it as the 'paved only-bicycle-only-wiki-route'.
That's all for now,
Thanks for reading this, :-)
Cheers,
Sam Vekemans
Across Canada Trails
(the 'unofficial' OpenStreetMap National Trails ccoordinator for Canada')
:-)
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