[Talk-ca] French Street names in Ottawa

Mon Sep 26 18:44:46 UTC 2016

Bonne trouvaille Pierre!

For our English-speaking colleagues who might find it wearisome to work
through the French language info, I will cite the specific street-names
guide (
http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/pdf/guideaffichageodonymique.pdf?ts=0.9319020490929337):
"Sur une plaque de rue ou un panneau de signalisation, l'élément générique
débute par la particule de position".

Loïc

On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 2:02 PM, <talk-ca-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Send Talk-ca mailing list submissions to
>         talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>         https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>         talk-ca-request at openstreetmap.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>         talk-ca-owner at openstreetmap.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Talk-ca digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: French street names in Ottawa (Jonathan Crowe)
>    2. Re: French street names in Ottawa (john whelan)
>    3. Re: French street names in Ottawa (Pierre Béland)
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jonathan Crowe <jonathan.crowe at gmail.com>
> To: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 12:30:51 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa
> I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are
> capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and
> Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue
> etc. is even a question.
>
> I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so
> forth. Drive any autoroute.
>
> Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the
> francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been
> capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.)
>
> This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been
> discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut
> place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that:
> there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
>
> Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that
> capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in
> other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s
> Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.)
>
>
> Jonathan Crowe
> The Map Room
> http://www.maproomblog.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets,
> they use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they
> were the authority.
> >
> > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before
> being added.
> >
> > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added
> following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.  There
> were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by
> the by-law and these did not have the French added.
> >
> > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in
> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the
> French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways
> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name
> added.
> >
> > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and
> most rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in
> Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are
> less likely to have undocumented features.
> >
> > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a
> custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in
> OSMand with the right settings.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> >
> >
> > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon <hameonl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
> not "Rue Sparks"
> > The first word is not capitalised.
> > This was carefully verified before the names were added.
> > Thanks John
> >
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue,
> avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or
> address (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&
> srchtxt=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14&lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3).
> >
> > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence",
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM
> in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/
> -71.28523&layers=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec (
> http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France (
> https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-
> Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=
> 31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9).
> >
> > As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to
> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how
> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for
> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Loïc
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
> To: Jonathan Crowe <jonathan.crowe at gmail.com>
> Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 13:02:20 -0400
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa
>
> I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the
> responsibility for naming the streets.
>
> French in Canada is quite different to other countries.  For example
> accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada there
> are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion of your
> teacher.
>
> There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the French
> language.  One accented character only occurs in a single French place
> name.  Fun when you need to define the character set.  863 is Canadian
> French character set by the way that is not used in other countries.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On 26 Sep 2016 12:32 pm, "Jonathan Crowe" <jonathan.crowe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are
>> capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and
>> Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue
>> etc. is even a question.
>>
>> I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and
>> so forth. Drive any autoroute.
>>
>> Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in
>> the francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been
>> capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.)
>>
>> This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been
>> discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut
>> place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that:
>> there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
>>
>> Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that
>> capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in
>> other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s
>> Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.)
>>
>>
>> Jonathan Crowe
>> The Map Room
>> http://www.maproomblog.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets,
>> they use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they
>> were the authority.
>> >
>> > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before
>> being added.
>> >
>> > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name
>> added following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.
>> There were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered
>> by the by-law and these did not have the French added.
>> >
>> > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in
>> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the
>> French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways
>> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name
>> added.
>> >
>> > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and
>> most rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in
>> Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are
>> less likely to have undocumented features.
>> >
>> > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a
>> custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in
>> OSMand with the right settings.
>> >
>> > Cheerio John
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon <hameonl at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
>> not "Rue Sparks"
>> > The first word is not capitalised.
>> > This was carefully verified before the names were added.
>> > Thanks John
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi John,
>> >
>> > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue,
>> avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or
>> address (http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&srchtx
>> t=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14&lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3).
>> >
>> > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of
>> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence",
>> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM
>> in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/
>> -71.28523&layers=D) and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec (
>> http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/) or France (
>> https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Nant
>> es-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1
>> TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9).
>> >
>> > As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to
>> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how
>> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for
>> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa.
>> >
>> > Cheers!
>> >
>> > Loïc
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-ca mailing list
>> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: "Pierre Béland" <pierzenh at yahoo.fr>
> To: john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>, Jonathan Crowe <
> jonathan.crowe at gmail.com>
> Cc: Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:58:32 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa
> Au Québec, la Commission de toponymie publie les règles d'écriture des
> noms. Et oui avec première lettre en capitales.
>
> voir http://www.toponymie.gouv.qc.ca/ct/normes-procedures/regles-ecriture/
>
>
>
>
> Pierre
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *De :* john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
> *À :* Jonathan Crowe <jonathan.crowe at gmail.com>
> *Cc :* Talk-CA OpenStreetMap <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
> *Envoyé le :* lundi 26 Septembre 2016 13h02
> *Objet :* Re: [Talk-ca] French street names in Ottawa
>
> I suggest you take it up with the City of Ottawa since they have the
> responsibility for naming the streets.
> French in Canada is quite different to other countries.  For example
> accents are not normally used in upper case in France but in Canada there
> are differences of opinion and it seems to relate to the opinion of your
> teacher.
> There is very little consensus on what characters are used in the French
> language.  One accented character only occurs in a single French place
> name.  Fun when you need to define the character set.  863 is Canadian
> French character set by the way that is not used in other countries.
> Cheerio John
>
> On 26 Sep 2016 12:32 pm, "Jonathan Crowe" <jonathan.crowe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I just did a quick check. On OSM, Rue/Chemin/Boulevard/etc. are
> capitalized in Montréal, Québec, Paris, Marseille, Besançon, Lille — and
> Gatineau. Ottawa is the *only* place I’m aware of where capitalizing Rue
> etc. is even a question.
>
> I mean, Quebec highway exit signs capitalize Rue, Boulevard, Chemin and so
> forth. Drive any autoroute.
>
> Which is to say that to me the evidence of existing usage elsewhere in the
> francophone world is pretty overwhelming. (For the record, I have been
> capitalizing Rue etc. in my edits.)
>
> This is the second time this month that anglophones (generally) have been
> discussing how to deal with names in other languages (see also the Nunavut
> place names thread). I think we need to be *very* careful about that:
> there’s an excellent chance that we don’t know what we’re talking about.
>
> Also, I have a hard time believing that search is so case-sensitive that
> capitalizing/not capitalizing Rue etc. would break it. (It’s broken in
> other ways: searching “boulevard cite des jeunes” does not yield Gatineau’s
> Boulevard de la Cité-des-Jeunes. But that’s another issue.)
>
>
> Jonathan Crowe
> The Map Room
> http://www.maproomblog.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 26, 2016, at 11:51 AM, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I was under the impression that the City of Ottawa named the streets,
> they use lower case for rue.   I assumed since they named the streets they
> were the authority.
> >
> > The entries were confirmed with a Francophone School teacher before
> being added.
> >
> > Originally about 97% of the highways in Ottawa had the French name added
> following the Ottawa by-law.  These were all done in lower case.  There
> were one or two street names that had odd names that were not covered by
> the by-law and these did not have the French added.
> >
> > Now we have a mixture as people have changed the entry to upper case in
> roughly 20% of the cases which is unfortunate as it impacts searching the
> French street name entry by name.  We also have had a number of highways
> added as Ottawa has grown which may or may not have had the French name
> added.
> >
> > Reality is most users use the English version of the street name and
> most rendering is done in English.  This is similar to many francophones in
> Ottawa prefer to use English versions of software as they feel they are
> less likely to have undocumented features.
> >
> > I only know of two renderers that use the French name and they are a
> custom set of rules I made for Maperitive and also they can be shown in
> OSMand with the right settings.
> >
> > Cheerio John
> >
> >
> >
> > On 26 September 2016 at 10:55, Loïc Haméon <hameonl at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Please note the correct French name for rue Sparks is "rue Sparks" and
> not "Rue Sparks"
> > The first word is not capitalised.
> > This was carefully verified before the names were added.
> > Thanks John
> >
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> > It's true that in French the generic element of place names (rue,
> avenue, chemin, etc.) are normally not capitalized as part of a text or
> address (http://www.btb.termiumplus. gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&
> srchtxt=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14& lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3
> <http://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/redac-srch?lang=fra&srchtxt=rue&cur=9&nmbr=14&lettr=3&info0=3.3.8#zz3>
> ).
> >
> > However, in maps, where the street name is usually shown independent of
> anything else and this generic name is the first element of the "sentence",
> it is usual for it to be capitalized. This is how they are entered in OSM
> in Quebec (http://www.openstreetmap.org/ way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/
> -71.28523&layers=D
> <http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/165217842#map=17/46.82211/-71.28523&layers=D>)
> and also in other French maps, whether in Quebec (http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.
> ca/carteinteractive/ <http://carte.ville.quebec.qc.ca/carteinteractive/>)
> or France (https://www.viamichelin.fr/ web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-
> Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique- France?strLocid=
> 31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1j TFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9
> <https://www.viamichelin.fr/web/Cartes-plans/Carte_plan-Nantes-44000-Loire_Atlantique-France?strLocid=31NDJqejUxMGNORGN1TWpFM09EUT1jTFRFdU5UVTNNVFE9>
> ).
> >
> > As the "rue" part is not considered a proper name, it is subject to
> typographical change depending on the context of its use. Regardless of how
> it appears on Ottawa street signs, given there is an overwhelming norm for
> capitalization in maps, I would recommend you do the same in Ottawa.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Loïc
>
>
> ______________________________ _________________
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap. org/listinfo/talk-ca
> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-ca mailing list
> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-ca/attachments/20160926/3e6bfbf3/attachment-0001.html>