[Talk-ca] Saints in street names in Ontario

[Kevin Farrugia]

No, I'm referring to the official records of street names held by
municipalities. In many cases, at least in newer developments, they seem to
be abbreviated. If it's officially short form then it would be incorrect to
say it's Saint.

-------
Kevin Farrugia

On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 1:08 PM Martin Chalifoux <martin.chalifoux at icloud.com>
wrote:

> I think the osm database should use proper words. Abbreviating is a
> rendering issue and many rendering engines can do that. Space constraints
> on signage dictate the use of abbreviations for those.
>
>
>
> On Mar 15, 2019, at 12:50, Kevin Farrugia <kevinfarrugia at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Jarek,
>
> I agree that of the sign has a short form for saint then it should be that
> way on the map too, as the sign text comes from the official records of
> street names.
>
> I think St. Is better with a period as it makes it less ambiguous to it
> being an abbreviation and it may help screen readers or spoken directions
> in maps provide the right information.
>
> -------
> Kevin F
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 15, 2019, 12:44 PM Jarek Piórkowski <jarek at piorkowski.ca>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> A couple of months back we established a consensus [1] that "St." in
>> Canadian English city names should not be expanded.
>>
>> I have been thinking of having the same for street names, and would
>> like to ask people's opinions.
>>
>> My main motivation is St. Clair Avenue in Toronto. Every city source I
>> could find and every street sign I saw in Mapillary says "St. Clair"
>> or "St Clair". The TTC stations and routes are consistently "St
>> Clair". The City uses "St. Clair Avenue West" in official documents
>> like [2]. Geobase in Toronto has "St Clair Avenue West" , "St Clarens
>> Avenue", and "St Helens Avenue". Currently most of the street is named
>> "Saint Clair Avenue West/East" in OpenStreetMap, but this is changed
>> for some parts of the road every now and then.
>>
>> As a local mapper I would say that "St. Clair Avenue West" is the full
>> name. Unlike with "Av", "Ave", "W", the "St" in "St Clair" is IMO not
>> an abbreviation.
>>
>> Across the Golden Horseshoe names starting with "St. " or "St " seem
>> to be a bit more common [3] than "Saint" [4], I gather the
>> acronym-expanders have not looked as much outside of Toronto.
>>
>> Would we have Ontario community consensus for a statement along the lines
>> of:
>> "Where "St." or "St" is normally used in the full street name, it
>> should not be expanded to "Saint" even if pronounced so"?
>>
>> (I don't know what the naming conventions are in other provinces, so I
>> focus on Ontario for now. Apologies for being Ontario-centric, but I
>> don't know of a better venue that is Ontario-specific. I'll post links
>> to this message in wiki talk pages for Ontario, WikiProject_Canada,
>> and Canadian_tagging_guidelines.)
>>
>> As part of my checks I also looked at London UK, which I gather might
>> be the most-intensively-mapped English-speaking city. (Recommendations
>> for better-mapped English-speaking cities welcome). Searching for
>> "St." in road names [5], it has street names for bigger streets like
>> "St. John Street" and "St. Pancras Way"; [6] has name="St. Paul's
>> Road" + not:name="Saint Paul's Road" and has had so for 5 years.
>> Compare with searching for "Saint" [7] which also has some hits,
>> suggesting that both can be valid depending on what is signed and
>> used. (Or maybe it's just inconsistent.)
>>
>> [1]
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Municipality_Names
>> [2]
>> https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2016/ey/bgrd/backgroundfile-92339.pdf
>> [3] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1M
>> [4] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/H1P
>> [5] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPh
>> [6] https://osm.org/way/230843467
>> [7] https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/GPi
>>
>> Thanks,
>> --Jarek
>>
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