[Talk-ca] Community mailboxes

Tue Sep 14 23:51:57 UTC 2021

If we have operator:en Canada Post and operator:fr Poste Canada that covers
it nicely.  Then it doesn't matter what you put in operator.  If someone
wants the French or English to display it is available.  I seem to recall
that Canada Post is a federal agency thus it is perfectly permissible for
an Anglophone in Quebec to want to see the English name.

Cheerio John

On Tue, Sep 14, 2021, 19:34 Andrew Lester <a-lester at shaw.ca> wrote:

> We could spend a ton of time trying to come up with a complex decision
> tree for determining which language to use as the default for any given
> point in Canada, but I think I'll just declare that as being beyond the
> scope of this current proposal. I was hoping we could come up with a
> relatively simple definition that I could put in the wiki, but I don't
> think we'll be able to do that. For now, I'll be satisfied if we can come
> to a determination on the ones that I raised in this discussion. How about
> this:
> -The mailboxes in Quebec (170 of them, almost all in Quebec City) get
> operator=Postes Canada
> -The two mailboxes in New Brunswick get operator=Canada Post (no real
> reason for choosing English, but we have to pick something)
> -The rest of them across Canada (699, none in Nunavut) get operator=Canada
> Post
>
> If anyone has any objections to this plan, I'd prefer that you propose an
> alternate solution rather than simply object, because that wouldn't get us
> anywhere.
>
> Andrew
>
> ------------------------------
> *From: *"Iain" <iain at monkeyface.ca>
> *To: *"john whelan" <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
> *Cc: *"a-lester" <a-lester at shaw.ca>, "Jherome Miguel" <
> jheromemiguel at gmail.com>, "talk-ca" <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
> *Sent: *Saturday, September 11, 2021 6:32:54 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [Talk-ca] Community mailboxes
>
> I agree with Andrew and how he suggests keeping the operator tag and
> predominant language.
>
> I would like to point out in Nunavut there is the protected language act.
> Similar to other language acts Inuit languages must be part of all public
> communication.
>
> Iain
>
> On Sep 10, 2021, at 17:42, john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Currently rendering systems such as osmand will use either a French value
> or an English value based on preferences.  In Ottawa Sparks Street comes up
> in English and rue Sparks in French.  The west end of Ottawa has a higher
> percentage of English speakers and in general there are more French
> speakers in the East. I think 99% of Francophones in Ottawa can speak
> English.  There are towns is Quebec that have a majority of English
> speakers.  One Quebec demographic language problem is that it is thought
> that French will no longer be the language used in the home by more than
> 50% of the population in X years time. Do we change all the French to
> English when that happens?  I don't like the idea of using a name based on
> what is thought to be the local language.  For example what would be your
> definition of a local area?
>
> Bilingualism is a minefield.
>
> Cheerio John
>
> On Fri, 10 Sept 2021 at 18:13, Andrew Lester <a-lester at shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> I agree that we should probably keep the operator tag. I think it would
>> be good to come up with a solution that we can add to the Canadian Tagging
>> Guidelines page so future mappers can keep things consistent. Otherwise,
>> we'll likely end up with a mix of operator values across the country, and
>> possibly get some dual-values again. I like the idea of setting operator
>> based on the predominant language of the area. Do you think that would be
>> sufficient guidance? I'm thinking something along the lines of "Set the
>> operator tag to either "Canada Post" or "Postes Canada" based on the
>> predominant language of the area"?
>>
>> At least for now, the mailboxes in question would be fairly easy to split
>> between English-speaking and French-speaking areas. The ones in Quebec
>> would get operator=Postes Canada, whereas most of the rest would get
>> operator=Canada Post. There are only two in New Brunswick: one just west of
>> Fredericton (http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/6691229693) and one
>> outside of Saint John (http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4117220884). I
>> admit I'm not too familiar with the intricacies of bilingualism in New
>> Brunswick. Would these two areas be considered English-speaking? The roads
>> that these mailboxes are on have English names. Or is New Brunswick truly
>> bilingual and we realistically can't choose one or the other? I know some
>> places like Brussels use dual-value names, so maybe we'd just have to use
>> operator=Canada Post/Postes Canada in New Brunswick?
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From: *"Jherome Miguel" <jheromemiguel at gmail.com>
>> *To: *"talk-ca" <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
>> *Sent: *Friday, September 10, 2021 12:25:02 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [Talk-ca] Community mailboxes
>>
>> I would either stick to option 2 or 3, but leaning to option 2. We can
>> assume all community mailboxes are under Canada Post/Postes Canada even if
>> FedEx, Purolator or UPS doesn’t have something like that, but I would still
>> like to keep the operator tag for completeness.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 10, 2021 at 5:02 AM <talk-ca-request at openstreetmap.org>
>> wrote:
>>
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>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Community mailboxes (Andrew Lester)
>>>    2. Re: Community mailboxes (Jarek Pi?rkowski)
>>>    3. Re: Community mailboxes (Jarek Pi?rkowski)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2021 15:52:33 -0600 (MDT)
>>> From: Andrew Lester <a-lester at shaw.ca>
>>> To: talk-ca <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org>
>>> Subject: [Talk-ca] Community mailboxes
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <686760212.400042543.1631224353185.JavaMail.zimbra at shaw.ca>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> Back in March, Dartmouthmapmaker made a mechanical edit (
>>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/100559754) where they changed
>>> all community mailboxes in Canada tagged with type=cmb and:
>>> -Gave them the name "Canada Post Community Mailbox"
>>> -Added the operator tag with the value "Canada Post/ Poste Canada"
>>> -Changed type=cmb to post_box:type=community
>>>
>>> I made a comment on that changeset at the time expressing my disapproval
>>> of the changes, but didn't pursue it any further. However, I think it's
>>> time we deal with the situation.
>>>
>>> Here are the problems I see with the change and how I propose that they
>>> be resolved:
>>> -Name: These mailboxes don't have names in reality. If any particular
>>> mailbox does indeed have a name (which I find unlikely), I highly doubt
>>> it's "Canada Post Community Mailbox". This artificial label should be
>>> removed from any mailboxes.
>>> -Operator: The operator value currently contains both of the bilingual
>>> versions of "Canada Post". I believe this should be split out into
>>> operator:en=Canada Post and operator:fr=Poste Canada
>>> -Type: While type=cmb was the documented recommendation for these for
>>> many years, I see that the Canadian tagging guidelines (
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Canadian_tagging_guidelines#Community_mailboxes)
>>> have since been updated to instead recommend post_box:type=community.
>>> Considering this change to the guidelines, I would support retaining this
>>> part of the original changeset.
>>>
>>> In summary, what I'm proposing is a mechanical edit where:
>>> -An Overpass search is performed for "amenity=post_box and name="Canada
>>> Post Community Mailbox" in Canada"
>>> -The name tag is removed
>>> -The operator tag is removed (or should this contain "Canada Post"?)
>>> -The tag operator:en is set to "Canada Post"
>>> -The tag operator:fr is set to "Poste Canada"
>>> -The tag post_box:type is retained, or set to post_box:type=community if
>>> not present
>>>
>>> The original changeset modified 8487 nodes, but an Overpass search now
>>> finds only 871 that still have that name, so it seems like many
>>> contributors have the same opinion as me and have already made some changes
>>> in their areas.
>>>
>>> What are your thoughts on the proposed actions? If there isn't any
>>> opposition in the next couple of weeks, I plan to go ahead and make these
>>> changes.
>>>
>>> Andrew Lester
>>> Victoria, BC
>>>
>>>
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