[Talk-ca] First Nations reserve naming

Tue Dec 6 21:03:21 UTC 2022

long story short we should revert these changesets

On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 3:47 PM Hoser AB <hoserab1 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ooooh boy, hahaha...
>
> So what you're saying Michael is that you contacted someone in order to
> "do your research" but didn't bother waiting for a response before blazing
> ahead with whatever changes you wanted to make anyway. Not unlike your
> earlier appeal in a changeset comment to "consensus on the talk-ca mail
> list" where there was/is none.
>
> When someone from the nation responds that they make no distinction, and
> it's all "Tsúùt’ínà" in their language and "Tsuut'ina" (categorically no
> space) in English... then what? Are you going to ignore it because it's not
> the answer you were looking for? Are you going to ignore it because it's
> the answer I already gave you, but I'm a big meanie and you don't like me?
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 6, 2022, Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> "Just because they have a web site does not mean they are the authority.
>> It is usually far more complex than that."
>>
>> It's the official website for the Tsuut'ina Nation. I think they have
>> authority to say what the reserve is called in the Tsuut'ina language.
>>
>> https://tsuutina.com/
>>
>> "My suggestion would be to desist changing things in Canada."
>>
>> No.
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 3:19 AM john whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> " I contacted the Tsuut'ina Nation through the easy to find contact form
>>> on their honestly very well-designed website. I am waiting for their
>>> response. I don't know any specific people there to contact directly, but
>>> I'm sure my email will end up in the right place soon enough. When I get a
>>> reply, rest assured, this mailing list will be the first to see it."
>>>
>>> Just because they have a web site does not mean they are the authority.
>>> It is usually far more complex than that.
>>>
>>> My suggestion would be to desist changing things in Canada.
>>>
>>> Cheerio John
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022, 1:27 AM Michael Stark, <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The nation and the reserve absolutely do not have the same name. I
>>>> believe I was referring to the official name before, so I'll use that as an
>>>> example. The official name of the nation is "Tsuut'ina Nation Band No. 432"
>>>> and the official name of the reserve is "Tsuu T'ina Nation Indian Reserve
>>>> No. 145". Notice that each official name is different and refers to a
>>>> different entity. And the nation and the reserved have a different
>>>> population, as another example.
>>>>
>>>> I did not create a solution for a nonexistent problem. If I see
>>>> something on OSM that has missing or inaccurate information, I do my best
>>>> to make improvements.
>>>>
>>>> I contacted the Tsuut'ina Nation through the easy to find contact form
>>>> on their honestly very well-designed website. I am waiting for their
>>>> response. I don't know any specific people there to contact directly, but
>>>> I'm sure my email will end up in the right place soon enough. When I get a
>>>> reply, rest assured, this mailing list will be the first to see it.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 6, 2022 at 12:02 AM Hoser AB <hoserab1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1. I can assure you I couldn't care less.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. I *asked* you, pending this discussion. Which is a perfectly
>>>>> reasoned thing to do when someone makes a contentious edit.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. It doesn't matter what other editors happened to do with some other
>>>>> OSM element. I made no reference to what other people did; I stated several
>>>>> times that First Nations lands should be treated on a case-by-case basis
>>>>> and shouldn't have a "top-down" approach applied to them.
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. No, the nation and the reserve are one and the same and have the
>>>>> same name.
>>>>>
>>>>> 5. Oh I have no doubt you're trying to be helpful and have been
>>>>> editing with nothing but the noblest of intentions. But, as I said, you've
>>>>> created a solution in search of a problem rather than the other way around,
>>>>> are seemingly oblivious to why anyone would object, and are quick to react
>>>>> in a confrontational manner.
>>>>>
>>>>> 6. So whom did you speak with at the Tsuut'ina Nation, and what did
>>>>> they say? I'm sure we'd all love to know.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 10:40 PM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's break things down so everything is clear and easy to understand.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. Yes, I can be busy. You don't understand my life, and you
>>>>>> shouldn't need to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. You specifically told me to stop editing. You are not the
>>>>>> authority of editing on OSM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. The edits I made were based on similar edits made by the exact
>>>>>> same editors you referenced when you said they fixed the name.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 4. I am aware of that. But again, the nation and the reserve do have
>>>>>> different names and other info other than the Wikipedia and Wikidata tags.
>>>>>> So it should be clear I didn't create anything purely for the purpose of
>>>>>> representing Wikipedia and WIkidata tags.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5. Yes, I edit Wikipedia. In fact, I edit quite a range of things on
>>>>>> Wikipedia. I moved the article so the title would be more accurate. This
>>>>>> has absolutely nothing to do with my editing on OSM. It would be best not
>>>>>> to assume I have bad intentions, or to assume you understand my motives.
>>>>>> Assuming I am editing in bad faith on both OSM and Wikipedia is problematic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 6. I am aware of the "on the ground" rule. My edit history proves
>>>>>> that. I do recall mentioning multiple times that I personally contacted the
>>>>>> Tsuut'ina Nation to get their input on the matter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kindly knock off the attitude you have towards me. Stop assuming I am
>>>>>> editing in bad faith. Stop assuming I am trying to edit to push my
>>>>>> viewpoints on a culturally sensitive topic. None of this is helping anyone
>>>>>> here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 11:25 PM Hoser AB <hoserab1 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "A bit busy" continuing to edit relations you were quite politely
>>>>>>> and pointedly asked to refrain from editing until you participated further
>>>>>>> in this discussion, but I digress...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1) "I ended up following how other First Nations with one reserve
>>>>>>> displayed on OSM" is problematic: we don't concern ourselves with how
>>>>>>> things are *displayed* on the map. Nor do all First Nations need to be
>>>>>>> mapped in the same way. Nor should they be.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2) It's entirely redundant to have two overlapping relations for
>>>>>>> what is essentially the same thing. It is entirely contrary to one of the
>>>>>>> most basic OSM good practices: "one feature, one OSM element". In the case
>>>>>>> of the Tsuut'ina, the nation and the land and the people all have the exact
>>>>>>> same name: Tsuut'ina Nation. Adding an additional, overlapping relation
>>>>>>> (erroneously) called "Tsuu T'ina Nation 145" adds nothing to the map.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3) We add wikipedia=* and wikidata=* tags to OSM elements which
>>>>>>> happen to have Wikipedia articles and wikidata codes for them; we don't add
>>>>>>> elements to OSM for the expressed purpose of adding wikipedia and wikidata
>>>>>>> tags to them. Or put another way, just because something has a wikidata tag
>>>>>>> and a Wikipedia page does not mean it merits being added to OSM, especially
>>>>>>> where it could have been represented with a single thing that's already on
>>>>>>> the map. (see point 2 above w.r.t. "one feature, one OSM element") With
>>>>>>> respect to the additional overlapping Tsuut'ina "reserve" relation you
>>>>>>> added, YOU MOVED THE WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE to suit your preferred (outdated...)
>>>>>>> spelling after someone else had already moved the article to the current
>>>>>>> spelling (see
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tsuu_T%27ina_145&type=revision&diff=1124936360&oldid=1124525054).
>>>>>>> You're editing Wikipedia to suit what you wanted to do on OSM; that is
>>>>>>> problematic...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I urge you to read the OSM wiki, especially as it concerns names and
>>>>>>> "truth". See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Ground_truth.
>>>>>>> Geographical reality—"ground-truth"—is that "Tsuu T'ina Nation 145" is
>>>>>>> simply "the Tsuut'ina Nation". "Official-truth" isn't lost if we simply add
>>>>>>> official_name=*. This is precisely how the Tsuut'ina Nation was mapped in
>>>>>>> the first place, before you ever touched it. It was absolutely fine the way
>>>>>>> it was. You created a solution in search of a problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, Dec 5, 2022 at 2:03 AM Michael Stark <michael60634 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hey, sorry for the delay in replying. I've been a bit busy between
>>>>>>>> when I last wrote and now. Also, I hope I sent this correctly as I am not
>>>>>>>> familiar with using the mailing list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What I ended up doing is following what how other First Nations
>>>>>>>> with one reserve are displayed on OSM. That would be a relation for the
>>>>>>>> First Nation, and a relation for the reserve. It may sound redundant to
>>>>>>>> have two separate relations, and I thought this at first too, but upon
>>>>>>>> further consideration, I think it might be the right solution. The reason
>>>>>>>> for this is that both the First Nation and the reserve have separate names,
>>>>>>>> official names, Wikidata tags, Wikipedia tags, previous names, et cetera.
>>>>>>>> So the existing relation is for the Tsuut'ina Nation and has all relevant
>>>>>>>> tags, and I created a new relation for the reserve, which has all tags
>>>>>>>> relevant to the reserve.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 3, 2022 at 9:22 AM John Whelan <jwhelan0112 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even using the term "First Nations reserve" maybe controversial.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not an easy one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheerio John
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ca wrote on 12/3/2022 8:31 AM:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OSM object representing XYZ should carry the name of XYZ
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> OSM object representing First Nations reserve should carry name
>>>>>>>>> of First Nations reserve
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2 gru 2022, 07:08 od michael60634 at gmail.com:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How should First Nations reserves be named? Is it best to use the
>>>>>>>>> name of the reserve, or the name of the group that inhabits the reserve?
>>>>>>>>> I've noticed that two mappers changed the names of many reserves across
>>>>>>>>> Canada, and even the US, from the name of the reserve to the name of the
>>>>>>>>> tribe inhabiting the reserve.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-ca mailing list
>>>> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>
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