[Talk-ca] Road name edits in Canada

Thu May 5 17:43:12 UTC 2022

I just noticed that this mapper has hit my area (Vancouver Island, BC), and that some of the changesets local to me are where the long discussions have occurred. I looked through all of their changesets in my OSMCha watch area to see what they've done, and I've seen more than enough for me to conclude that: 
1. They're absolutely lying about the sources they're using. 
2. They're absolutely using Google Maps as a source. 
3. Whatever other sources they're using beside Google Maps, those contain poor or incorrect information. 

They've stated in changeset comments and tags that they're using the Statistics Canada Road Network File as the source for these edits. This is demonstrably false. I downloaded that dataset and found that the vast majority of the roads/names they added in OSM do not exist in that dataset. I also compared to other local government sources for the respective regions, and those also don't contain these roads/names either. On the rare occasion that a road does exist in the StatsCan dataset or local sources, the geometry mapped by this user often doesn't match those sources. However, the names and geometry DO match Google Maps. In case after case, I found that the only source I could find of such a road was in Google Maps, and not in StatsCan, local official maps, or any other source (nor on-the-ground, as I know in many cases). 

In a number of other cases, descriptive names have been added to private strata roads or other unnamed roads. For example, an unnamed strata service road running through a mobile home park was given the name " Laughlin Mobile Home Park ", and an unnamed access road through a recreation park was given the name "Wildplay Victoria Road" (seemingly named after a business that operates nearby but not even along this road). Again, they stated that they used the StatsCan dataset, which does not contain these roads. Google Maps also doesn't contain many of these descriptive names, so they must have used some other (poor) data source for these particular changes. 

Across a few dozen changesets, I think the only edit I noticed that seemed like a positive change was an update to the population on a place=city node. Otherwise, the rest of their changes to roads added incorrect information and/or used disallowed sources. Given the continued actions of this user and the damage they're doing (both by adding incorrect data and by using improperly-licensed sources), I'd be in support of not only reverting all of their changesets, but also a permanent block. This user is not acting in good faith and can't be trusted to change their ways, based on their actions given the number of blocks they've already received. 

If you'd like any more specific cases to demonstrate what I've seen, let me know and I can put some information together. 

Andrew Lester 
Victoria, BC 

From: "Andy Townsend" <ajt1047 at gmail.com> 
To: "Jarek Piórkowski" <jarek at piorkowski.ca> 
Cc: "talk-ca" <talk-ca at openstreetmap.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2022 8:22:03 AM 
Subject: Re: [Talk-ca] Road name edits in Canada 

> I would have to suspect that the fact that the shop is currently 
incorrectly 
> listed in Google Maps at 1600 Queen St W is not a coincidence. 

That is indeed suspicious. Their other changesets with comments can be 
found at 
https://resultmaps.neis-one.org/osm-discussion-comments?uid=15467027 . 

Some of what they have said in answer to questions there (for example on 
https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/120074372 ) is demonstrably untrue. 
Some is fairly implausible - they've used the "local knowledge" line 
about Winnipeg, Thunder Bay and Toronto at essentially the same time. 
Not impossible, but would imply a multi-day drive to travel from one to 
the other. 

On behalf of the DWG and following complaints from various places (not 
just Canada) I've actually reverted significant numbers of their edits 
twice now (https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/119319346 and 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/119755674 ). I'm happy to do 
the same again if necessary, but if some or even most of their recent 
edits are OK, despite the dubious claims in their comments, then I'd be 
equally happy to let those stay. 

I'd be grateful if anyone in Canada with any local knowledge about the 
areas edited could comment - either here or on the changesets concerned. 

Best Regards, 

Andy 

On 01/05/2022 20:20, Jarek Piórkowski wrote: 
> Hello Andy, 
> 
> The mapper has been active in my neighbourhood and I am sad to report 
> that their edits at least in the Toronto area must be considered 
> suspect. In https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/120101768 they 
> added a bubble tea shop which was not yet open at the time, and in a 
> wrong location. The shop opened yesterday at 1660 Queen St W; the 
> editor added it 8 days ago at 1598 Queen St W, supposedly replacing a 
> long-empty storefront (which in fact remains empty). I would have to 
> suspect that the fact that the shop is currently incorrectly listed in 
> Google Maps at 1600 Queen St W is not a coincidence. 
> 
> --Jarek 
> 
> On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 at 16:53, Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com> wrote: 
>> Hello talk-ca people, 
>> 
>> Andy from the Data Working Group here. 
>> 
>> A new prolific mapper has recently popped up, adding road names in 
>> Canada and elsewhere. It has been suggested to the DWG that many of the 
>> names used were just copied from sources that aren't licence-compatible 
>> with OSM, such as Google Maps. Some responses to questions about map 
>> sources have been somewhat evasive (see e.g. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/119735027 ) but they now claim 
>> to be using sources such as: 
>> 
>> "City of Winnipeg Open Data Portal - Contains information licensed under 
>> the Open Government Licence – Winnipeg." 
>> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/734204653 
>> 
>> and 
>> 
>> "Statistics Canada Road Network File (RNF)" 
>> 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/507685150 
>> 
>> (see https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/119761959 for more) 
>> 
>> Do these sources check out as reasonable, and licence-compatible with 
>> OSM? Also (and actually more important) are the latest edits by this 
>> user backed up by those sources? 
>> 
>> Normally of course OSM mappers have considerable freedom to map as they 
>> wish - we take a lot on trust, and don't check that every edit that was 
>> allegedly derived from a compatible imagery source actually was and 
>> wasn't from a non-compatible source instead. Unfortunately, in the case 
>> of this mapper (see previous interactions at e.g. 
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/PopeyePopcord/blocks and 
>> https://openstreetmap.org/changeset/119735027 ) I think we need to have 
>> a soupçon of skepticism. 
>> 
>> Best Regards, 
>> 
>> Andy 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ 
>> Talk-ca mailing list 
>> Talk-ca at openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ca 

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