[Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-transit] NAPTAN database

[Peter Miller]

On 20 Feb 2009, at 12:38, Thomas Wood wrote:

> 2009/2/20 Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists) <ajrlists at googlemail.com>:
>> Thomas Wood wrote:
>>> Sent: 20 February 2009 12:00 AM
>>> To: Brian Prangle
>>> Cc: Talk-gb-westmidlands at openstreetmap.org; talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] [Talk-transit] NAPTAN database
>>>
>>
>> snip
>>
>>>> Currently the typical tagging of bus stops (from those who really  
>>>> care ;-
>>> ) )
>>>> in Birmingham follows the pattern here:
>>>>
>>>> Node 410393Details
>>>>
>>>> ref: 504974
>>>> route_ref: 104;104A;105;110;112;115;902;904;905;915
>>>> shelter: yes
>>>> highway: bus_stop
>>>> location: Birmingham Road;The Yenton
>>>> towards: Sutton Coldfield
>>>>
>>>> All of which is visible from a survey. Additionally, some bus  
>>>> stops have
>>>> names such as Acocks Green Village AB. I take it that all this
>>> information
>>>> is available in the NAPTAN data
>>>
>>> Routes, shelters, no. Towards, yes, to some extent - the bearing at
>>> which the bus leaves is given.
>>> Ref depends on where you are, in London, yes, but has to be parsed  
>>> out
>>> of the Indicator field, which may be of the form "Stop A, Stand A,  
>>> or
>>> A" code has been written for this.
>>> Surrey has stuff present in the NaptanCode field, the converter also
>>> takes this into account, Surrey uses free-form Indicator fields, to
>>> say things like "O/s no. 15"
>>> I've not yet run the West Mids data through the latest version of  
>>> the
>>> converter to see what it does with it/it looks like.
>>> Names are in the data set.
>>> I'm not exactly sure what you mean with your location tag, if it's
>>> whats printed on the bus stop sign, then I've usually tagged as  
>>> name.
>>> Since the 'location' is inherent in the node positioning. However,
>>> NaPTAN does provide data of which street the stop is on, and if it's
>>> near a junction with another street.
>>
>> Here is the photo of that stop Brian mentioned above:
>>
>> http://ajr.hopto.org/osm/SD530488.JPG
>
> NaPTAN lists the name as "The Yenton", the Street as "SUTTON RD", and
> the Indicator as "Stop YF"
> Currently, the converter pulls these out as name=The Yenton and ref=YF
> Incidentally, this stop does have a NaptanCode of nwmdgpgm, but I
> cannot find 504974 anywhere in the database. (Nor 504956, as shown in
> the photo).

The NaPTAN code is useful to the public. One can text that code to a  
phone number and get information about upcoming departures.
http://www.pti.org.uk/SMS/SMS.htm

The number 504974 might be an asset number of the bus stop used by the  
authority for management purposes. That might belong in the PlateCode  
field, but the problem with non-naptan fields is that they will be  
done differently in different parts of the county.

Should YT go in Ref? I am not sure about that. It might be better to  
using the naptancode there which is unique nationally.

>
>
>> Note that my OSM data entry is missing the stuff at the top of the  
>> sign
>> which Brian has been putting under the name tag I believe. Only  
>> stops at
>> major intersections/termini I think have these extra bits of data  
>> at the top
>> of the sign.
>
> Only the reference (YF) is listed in NaPTAN.

YF or similar is sometimes included on a roundel at the top of the pole.
>
>
>> And another example showing that they normally use the word  
>> "towards" on
>> most of the west midlands stop signs.
>>
>> http://ajr.hopto.org/osm/SD530486.JPG

The towards text is useful but doesn't fit in a timetable context,  
hence the shorter indicator.

Also, be aware that there will be differences between the national  
convention being adopted within NaTPAN of using the locality, a common  
name (a landmark, cross street etc) and then an indicator (opp/adj/ 
near) and the one that is used locally. In Sutton they are using a  
junction format where the name is a combination of the road the bus is  
on and the a cross street.

It is likely that as NaPTAN settles down that the street furniture  
will be updated to match this format, but that is an expensive process  
and so won't happen immediately.

We should probably accommodate all of the above. The NaPTAN data in  
the  naptan name space, and the actual streetside information in other  
fields. The actual name for the stop is errrr... well it could be  
either.

In defence of the industry and the current muddle, it is only with the  
advent of the internet and renewed interest in public transport over  
the past 10 years that any of these national DB / standardisation  
issues have become relevant. The UK are still in the process of  
creating a common consistent platform for these information services  
(and many other countries aren't trying to do it at all)

Regards,




Peter
>>
>
> Yes, this is common on all London bus stops that I've seen, its not in
> Naptan though.
> (Incidentally, the two Holly Lane stops are almost identical except
> for the codes, Indicator, opp vs adj, and Bearing, NE vs SW.)
>
>
> -- 
> Regards,
> Thomas Wood
> (Edgemaster)
>
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