[Talk-GB] District Boundaries - N Wales

[David Dixon]

Peter Miller wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2009, at 15:52, Bogus Zaba wrote:
> 
>> Peter Miller wrote:
>>> On 22 Aug 2009, at 12:03, Chris Hill wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well I'm pleased that they agree with me, but I'm not the oracle!   
>>>> This is another source quoting the same general information.  Do  
>>>> the Scottish and Northern Irish counties generally extend to the  
>>>> low water mark too? Drawing from the NPE maps seems to be our only  
>>>> reasonable source for the low water mark.
>>> Great stuff.
>>>
>>> Low water does however change much more rapidly that high water so  
>>> NPE is the 'least good' source of that date as it is 50 years old.  
>>> If one is fortunate enough to have detailed enough recent aerial  
>>> photography that that should be used.
>>>
>>> Fyi, for Suffolk the low water mark has changed by 50 meters in  
>>> places in the past 5 years (huge amounts of shingle has arrived  
>>> near Felixstowe Ferry extending low water by that amount since I  
>>> have lived in the area). Even the high water mark has moved by many  
>>> meters over 50 years in some places including Dunwich. One can see  
>>> the different in Potlatch comparing the OSM coastline with NPE base  
>>> mapping.
>>>
>>> We have good yahoo aerial photography for pasts of the coast in  
>>> Suffolk.
>>>
>>> However... I support the idea we use best low-water source availale  
>>> for each area. It might be good to create areas between high and  
>>> low water tagged with 'shingle', 'beach' etc.
>>>
>>> Should be also use low water as the edge of 'Wales' itself or has  
>>> any evidence for the 3 mile limit mentioned by the wiki by someone  
>>> been found?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bogus Zaba wrote:
>>>>> I have had confirmation from the Local Government Boundary  
>>>>> Commission for Wales who agree with the view below from Chris  
>>>>> Hill. They say :
>>>>> "...in general the seaward extent of a local authority is the low  
>>>>> water mark as defined by Ordnance Survey. The exception to this  
>>>>> are certain islands such as Flat Holm (which comes under  
>>>>> Cardiff), where the courts have made specific decisions, such as  
>>>>> Milford Haven, and where the Secretary of State has made an Order  
>>>>> extending the local authority boundary to include an area of the  
>>>>> sea (under Section 71 of the 1972 Act). As far as I am aware no  
>>>>> such orders have been made in respect of Welsh local authorities."
>>>>>
>>>>> That's good enough for me. I will define the low water mark from  
>>>>> NPE and use that in the Flinthsire and Denbighshire boundaries.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bogus Zaba
>>>>>
>> Regarding the Wales national boundary I should have mentioned that  
>> my contact at the Local Govt Boundary Commission for Wales also  
>> answered this partially. Words were :
>> "
>>
>> As far as I am aware Wales by itself does not have territorial  
>> waters. I think it just has the UK territorial waters because it is  
>> part of the UK. The Commission no longer have any remit for the  
>> Wales National Boundary as the section dealing with this was  
>> repealed from the 1972 Act some time ago. For our work we consider  
>> Wales to be the sum of the LA boundaries.
>>
>> "
> 
> Good work. Could you copy this text onto the Wales wiki page?
> 
> I think we should take that as a good enough answer that we should  
> treat the edge of Wales and low water.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> 
> Peter
> 
>> Bogus

I'm going to stick my oar in here and say that I don't believe that is 
correct, nor common sense.  For example, taking low water as the 
boundary would render the Menai Strait, Bardsey Sound, Cardiff Bay, etc. 
as outside Wales (and presumably outside England), yet within the UK.

The Government of Wales Bill 2006 may be of some help:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/pdf/ukpga_20060032_en.pdf

'158.  Interpretation [p88]
(1)...“Wales” includes the sea adjacent to Wales out as far as the seaward
boundary of the territorial sea.
...
(3) The Secretary of State may by order determine, or make provision for
determining, for the purposes of the definition of “Wales” any boundary
between—
(a) the parts of the sea which are to be treated as adjacent to Wales, and
(b) those which are not.'

Also section 58 [p104]

'Functions exercisable beyond the territorial sea:
4 (1) The power conferred by section 58(1)(c) includes power to direct 
that any
function under—
(a) Part 2 of the Food and Environment Protection Act 1985 (c. 48)
(deposits in the sea), or
(b) Part 4 of the Petroleum Act 1998 (c. 17) (abandonment of offshore
installations),
so far as exercisable by a Minister of the Crown in relation to Welsh
controlled waters is to be exercisable by the Minister of the Crown only 
after
consultation with the Welsh Ministers.
(2) In this paragraph “Welsh controlled waters” means so much of the sea
beyond the seaward boundary of the territorial sea as is adjacent to Wales.
(3) The power conferred by section 58(3) includes (in particular) power to
determine, or make provision for determining, for the purposes of the
definition of “Welsh controlled waters” any boundary between—
(a) the parts of the sea which are to be treated as adjacent to Wales, and
(b) those which are not,
including power to make different determinations or provision for different
purposes; and an order under section 158(3) may include any provision that
by virtue of this sub-paragraph may be included in an Order in Council
under section 58.'

In short, Wales includes the adjacent sea - don't ask me to what 
distance from land though!

David