[Talk-GB] London Tube Tagging Problems

Sat Mar 9 09:45:51 UTC 2013

Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one
issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as "National
Rail;London Underground;London Overground" but it does tag both stop
positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway="station"
which i feel should both be changed to be railway="stop" or
public_transport="platform" and a new, single node should be
railway="station" for the entire station?

I must have missed those station tags on the stop positions first time
round,  I did say I attempted to do it :)
I've removed those now, and I think the "station" property is captured in
the area represented by way 199669935 which surrounds the whole station.

On 8 March 2013 23:49, James Churchman <jameschurchman at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Aidan, thanks for such a fast reply!
>
> Yes very messy indeed!!
> Great i had a good read of that link you sent along with
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:railway%3Dstation and a few
> others.
>
> Reading :
> ---
> * For simple modeling of simple stations with a single track (or one
> in each direction) just add a node with railway=station and name=* at
> an appropriate point on the railway (tagged railway=rail,
> railway=subway etc).
> * For complex or larger stations it is often best to create a node
> within the main concourse area and use a public_transport=stop_area to
> associate this with the rest of the elements of the station.
> ---
>
> It sounds like uk tube stations that are largely underground the best
> thing is just a node. For larger stations there should still be a node
> but also but add it to a relation and additionally tag the Node as a
> "Stop Area" and along with an Area for the building="station" .. but
> the building="station" Area is not sufficient to be a station its
> self.. it needs a node
>
> Further down :
> ---
> * There should only be a single railway=station tag for each station.
> Where there are multiple nodes for a single station then consider
> converting the station to the area format and moving the relevant tags
> (including the name etc) to this area and remove the station tag from
> all the existing 'station' nodes.
> * Where a mainline station and metro station (or other railway like
> station) are physically connected, consider if they should be modeled
> as separate stations or as a single station. The associated Wikipedia
> article for the facilities might assist with the decision. If the
> facilities are run by separate organisations (for example a heritage
> station next to a mainline station) then it is probably better to map
> them using two separate railway=station tags.
> ---
>
> So this would indicate that only one "station" tag should ever be used ..
>
> Looking at your Kew Gardens tag it looks excellent with just one
> issue. It's correctly tagged for all 3 networks in one as "National
> Rail;London Underground;London Overground" but it does tag both stop
> positions on the two oposite direction tracks as railway="station"
> which i feel should both be changed to be railway="stop" or
> public_transport="platform" and a new, single node should be
> railway="station" for the entire station?
>
> Think i am starting to understand how it should be done :-)
>
> BR
>
> James
>
> On 8 March 2013 21:35, Aidan McGinley <aidmcgin+openstreetmap at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > James,
> >
> > Seems like a bit of a mess alright.  Take a look at the approved proposal
> > for public transport which should be the standard to work towards I would
> > think -
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport
> >
> > I attempted to apply this to Kew Gardens station a while back
> > (http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=51.47707&lon=-0.28496&zoom=17)  it's
> not
> > exactly straightforward, and I'm not sure how well it would work when the
> > station is entirely underground like much of central London.
> >
> > Aidan
> >
> > On 8 March 2013 21:05, James Churchman <jameschurchman at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Guys
> >>
> >> I was originally attempting to get all the London Underground Tube
> >> stations and Rail stations from OSM ( london xml file )
> >>
> >> The issues with the data I have had are :
> >>
> >> 1) Some stations are tagged as Nodes, some as Ways and some as Relations
> >>
> >> London Bridge is large area Way:
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50426&lon=-0.084887&zoom=18
> >> and is tagged as a "building" of type "station" and "railway" "station"
> >>
> >> Westminister Tube station is tagged as a Node
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.501144&lon=-0.125211&zoom=19
> >> of type "railway" "station" this possibly makes sense to be a Node as
> >> its too small to be a Way..
> >>
> >> Waterloo station is a Way
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.503282&lon=-0.113125&zoom=18
> >> but this time type "building" "station" ( rather than "train_station"
> >> as London bridge is ) ( and also "railway" "station" )
> >> but it's also grouped as a Relation of type "site" "railway_station"
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Maybe some being Nodes, Ways or Relations makes good sense, but maybe
> >> it does not... maybe all stations should be a Node ( London Bridge has
> >> no Nodes just a single Way ) and then station buildings should just be
> >> buildings.. that would at least be more consistant .. the buildings
> >> could always be put into a Relation with the Node if needed ?
> >>
> >> Also types of "train_station" and "station" etc... should this not be
> >> standardised?
> >>
> >>
> >> 2) Stations tagged multiple times  (this is a much bigger problem)  !
> >>
> >> Approximately 75 % of all London Underground Tube stations are tagged
> >> with a Node multiple times, the distribution looks like this:
> >>
> >> 0 times : e.g. London Bridge, this is only a Way there is no Node for
> >> either the Rail or Tube
> >>
> >> 1 single time : this is the rarest case and as far as I can see the
> >> correct case
> >> Borough, Farringdon, St James' Park, Westminister and a few others are
> >> the few single tagged Tube stations in London
> >>
> >> e.g Farringdon looks fine
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?mlat=51.52056&mlon=-0.10504&zoom=18
> >> its a single node of "railway" type "station" and has the two
> >> "networks" correctly attributed to it of "National Rail;London
> >> Underground". The only issue that i can see with Farringdon is as with
> >> many other tube stations it has a additional russian name "name:ru" of
> >> "Фаррингдон"
> >>
> >>
> >> 2,3,4 or even more tages for the same station ..
> >>
> >> High Street Kensington :
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.5008&lon=-0.19269&zoom=19 has
> >> 4 tags .. each one joined to a rail line
> >>
> >> Piccadilly Circus
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.510003&lon=-0.134754&zoom=18
> >> is tagged twice ( once under a different way )
> >>
> >> Lambeth North is again tagged twice ( once under a way )
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.499021&lon=-0.112524&zoom=18
> >>
> >> Oxford Circus Tube Station is not taged at all. but instead the 4
> >> exits are tagged singularly as type "railway" and "subway_entrance" ..
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.515258&lon=-0.141406&zoom=18
> >> though they all do seem to be grouped into a Relation of
> >> "public_transport" "stop_area"
> >> Is this level of tagging required, and would an actual "station" tag
> >> in the centre of these 4 entrances simply denoting the station itself
> >> be better ? ---as it is no station at all is plotted on osm.org
> >>
> >> Green Park Tube Station is similar again with no tagged station but
> >> many tagged entrances
> >>
> >>
> https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=safari&oe=UTF-8&ie=UTF-8&q=green+park&fb=1&gl=uk&hq=green+park&cid=0,0,15806140768408957347&ei=8To6UcfADM-w7AbP_oHQCA&ved=0CKwBEPwSMAA
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.506934&lon=-0.142474&zoom=18
> >>
> >>
> >> Waterloo Station is tagged once as a large area Way, and then 5
> >> separate times as well as Nodes detonating a station
> >> http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=51.50246&lon=-0.11246&zoom=17
> >> they are dotted all about the place, some on lower layers, some for
> >> one train line or another ..
> >>
> >>
> >> 3 ) Also there is the issue of networks tagging ..
> >> Some stations are tagged as "London Underground" or "National Rail" as
> >> they should, but some that are both a dual are tagged with two nodes
> >> one for each rather that a single node of "National Rail;London
> >> Underground" for example. eg Kensington Olympia is tagged twice, once
> >> with "London Overground" and once with "National Rail;London
> >> Underground"
> >>
> >>
> >> So in conclusion the problems I have found with Rail and Tube stations
> are
> >> :
> >> a) Tagged as Ways, Nodes or Relations; sometimes all 3, sometimes just
> >> a Node, sometimes a building Way of type "station", but no Node.
> >>
> >> b) Duplicated stations: sometimes an identical tagging many many many
> >> times. Sometimes the Rail and the Tube are placed as separate stations
> >> when they should be combined, sometimes there is a Way and also a
> >> Node, sometimes there is a station for every Rail line/track that
> >> comes into the actual station
> >>
> >> c) Stations are not taged at all, but instead the exits are all tagged
> >> as an exit, that are sometimes grouped as a exit relation
> >>
> >> d) Inconsistant tagging eg some are "train_station" and others just
> >> "station"
> >>
> >> ( e) odd Russian names for many of the stations )
> >>
> >>
> >> This is just from the ones I have looked at so far, I will look
> >> further in the mean time but asking from the OSM data the position of
> >> Rail and Tube stations in London is a very non-trivial task. Is there
> >> something missing from my understating, or does a refurbishment of the
> >> rail stations data for London needed? maybe something like every
> >> station is a single node placed at the approximate center, and then
> >> "exits" or station buildings are separately tagged and grouped into
> >> relations a long with the original point, and that a standard
> >> "station" and not the "railway_station" tag is chosen ? Also do these
> >> kinds of issues exist for other cities both around the uk and the data
> >> for the rest of the world, and is it limited to stations?
> >>
> >> Hope this has been helpful & can hopefully can get a discussion going
> >> about what i am missing and what might be able to be done to help!
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
> >
>
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