[Talk-GB] Moderation (WAS: Primary or Trunk? PITA?)

Mon Nov 4 23:09:27 UTC 2013

To lay this to rest.

I posted the original question to both lists because, while it only 
affected the UK, I felt it may have broader interest.  And I was right, 
there was more response on the Tagging list than talk-gb.

I don't mind people dis-agreeing with me, surely that is the whole point 
of a "talk" list, but if I am dredging up the past then I would expect 
those involved in the original question to either clear up any confusion 
or keep quiet.  What is not constructive are "tuts" and comments about 
this having already been discussed, although I am thick skinned enough 
to brush off such comments.

What upset me, yes I was upset, call me a whimp if you like, but if you 
ask anyone who has met me they will hopefully confirm I am not an 
over-sensitive wet, but nevertheless when, out of the blue, I received a 
direct email asking why I was being a pain in the ass, no discussion, no 
further questions about my confusion or my opinion just a direct 
insult.  That upset me, I felt attacked and I felt like I didn't want to 
engage and further with the mapping community.  Then I became angry that 
I was being bullied into submission and not even in public.  If you have 
an argument in a pub with a group of friends/colleagues then later one 
of them comes up to you when you're on your own and they use abusive 
language about your opinion how are you to feel?

How many times has this happened to new-comers and they've just walked 
away from the project?  When Alyssa Wright gave her presentation to SOTM 
2013 about a wider membership of OSM beyond White Anglo Saxon Males (my 
phrase not hers) I felt she was wrong in it being intimidating for other 
groups to join us, I now feel I was wrong.  Because as a White Anglo 
Saxon Male I sometimes feel intimidated so demographics who are lesser 
represented must feel worse. We must address this if we want to grow.

On the original question, clearly there is a lot of clash with this 
terminology.  Trunk roads were terms that my parents and grand parents 
used (I'm 46) but I've not heard it used in common speak for many years, 
let alone beyond the UK borders.  However, my real confusion is that GB 
trunk roads do not match the main description on the wiki for Trunk 
Roads, so I feel the wiki needs improving, I don't think that what has 
been tagged is wrong.

BTW, since complaining about the PITA comment I've had other, shall we 
say, "non-friendly" off-list comments. So a big thank you to those of 
you who have kept their comments on-list and in public, especially those 
of you who have agreed with me, at least in part.

Now, I'm knackered and am going to bed :-)

Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 04/11/2013 09:50, Andy Robinson wrote:
> For those who need to know the origins of the trunk/primary tag you need to
> go back to the very first version of Map Features, which I hold my hand up I
> developed. At the time I researched a lot of things but clearly not
> everything in detail and as a result I have a number of regrets that some
> tags that are now used worldwide aren't perfect. The trunk tag may be one of
> them as I'm sure if I had researched a little more in detail at the time I
> would have spotted, as TomH eloquently points out, we had moved on in the UK
> to a Primary  Route Network definition. But then again, would it apply to
> very country?
>
> I think the root of the issue, as its been raised many times in the past, is
> that I didn't have the foresight for highways to separate out the physical
> descriptions from the administrative and legal ones. After all we were only
> tagging segments with simple tags at the time.
>
> I noted last week that there are those who wish to change the
> highway=bus_stop tag to something that slots it in with public_transport
> mapping. I have no problem with any of that, objects can receive additional
> new tagging at any time to fit in with the bigger picture. I can see a time
> in a decade or so when there are lots of new tags, defined by a new wave of
> mappers who see the needs of OSM (and its uses) differently from the way
> many of us see things today. That's fine too, the project is meant to be
> organic.
>
> Anyway, enough of the history lecture, let's please remember we are all
> friends here, we all share a common enjoyment and goal.
>
> Cheers
> Andy
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Hughes [mailto:tom at compton.nu]
> Sent: 04 November 2013 08:35
> To: Rob Nickerson; Talk-GB
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Moderation (WAS: Primary or Trunk? PITA?)
>
> On 04/11/13 00:23, Rob Nickerson wrote:
>
>> To summarise: a simple question was asked entirely inocently, and I am
>> 100% sure that it was not meant to belittle 10 years of tagging. An
>> answer was given in quite a "matter of fact" tone which in face to
>> face communication would be fine but due to the un human nature of
>> email could be interpreted as negative. Again I am 100% sure it was
>> not meant negatively. Similarly I have had many positive conversations
>> with Chris, so hopefully his response was purely down to a
>> misinterpretation of the emails.
> I'm sorry, did I miss the point where somebody (other than you it seems) had
> a problem with the tone of my reply? As far as I can see the only complaints
> were about the (unacceptable IMHO) behaviour of chilly in his off list
> reply.
>
> Yes, my initial sentence about this having been discussed to death before
> may have been a bit short I guess, but the vast majority of my email was
> explainging the rationale behind the tagging.
>
>> Lessons:
>> * We should be able to explain the reasoning behind our tagging if asked.
> Absolutely, and I believe I did so.
>
> Tom
>
> --
> Tom Hughes (tom at compton.nu)
> http://compton.nu/
>
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