[Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: shop=betting to shop=bookmaker for selected names

Will Phillips wp4587 at gmail.com
Fri Oct 24 16:52:52 UTC 2014

Thank you for the constructive reply. I don't doubt you are acting in 
good faith and with more care than my initial message might have 
implied. However, I do think it is very important that these sort of 
systematic changes are fully discussed first. There have been a number 
of cases where such changes have been done badly in the past, so I do 
tend to view them with concern, especially when they are done unexpectedly.

The specific change you made that led to my original message was 
shop=tyre being replaced with shop=car_repair. I'm not familiar with any 
of the locations changed, but shop=tyre seems to me to be a more 
specific tag than shop=car_repair, so I don't think it should have been 
replaced without consultation (and preferably checking on the ground).

I'm not very keen on the shop=tyre tag, but it does at least indicate a 
garage that specialises (sometimes only) in selling and fitting tyres, 
which is something worth tagging in my view. There are about 10 such 
places tagged in Nottingham currently (Tyre Link, Tyre Point, Tyre Zone, 

I do certainly support the idea of discussing and agreeing recommended 
tagging for high street chains, but I think mappers on the ground should 
make the final judgement, because as I wrote in my earlier message, 
different branches of the same chain can sometimes vary depending on 
things like size and location.


On 24/10/2014 12:38, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Hi Will,
> On 24 October 2014 11:42, Will Phillips <wp4587 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'm confused by your actions. Yesterday you started the formal process for
>> making an uncontroversial change to the tagging of bookmakers, but since
>> then you have made a series of considerably more controversial edits with no
>> discussion at all. I wish to register my objection to these changes.
> As far as I am aware, the bookmaker tagging is more controversial than
> the changes I did today and yesterday.  Bookmaker versus betting is a
> longstanding controversy, with (until recently) nearly equal tagging
> and strong proponents for both sides. Moreover the numbers for the
> bookmaker changes are quite large (hundreds on both sides). On the
> other hand, the changes I made today and yesterday are shops where
> mappers have expressed a strong preference for a particular tagging,
> and only involve small numbers (mostly less than 10 shops), so easy to
> revert manually.
>> You are standardising the tagging for particular brands, removing the
>> original judgements made by mappers who looked at them on the ground. I find
>> it particularly de-motivating when these mass changes strip meaning from my
>> tagging, changing a specific tag to a more general one. I'm not against my
>> tagging being changed through discussion, but distinctions should be kept,
>> even if moved to a sub-tag (e.g. shop=bed versus shop=furniture
>> furniture=bed).
> I agree with that. Can you give examples of changes where I stripped
> meaning from tags? That should not have happened. I noticed the
> shop=bed situation myself, and already concluded myself that it would
> be good to carry out this change, but not without advance discussion.
>> I have other concerns about these sorts of edits:
>> Are you sure all the shops belonging to a chain sell the same thing and
>> offer the same services? In my experience this isn't always the case. For
>> example, WH Smith at train stations and airports sell a much narrower range
>> than their larger high street stores.
> I have surveyed 3016 shops myself (no, I'm not only an armchair
> mapper), so I think I have a fairly good understanding of what
> products shops sell. I might always have made a mistake of course, so
> if you spot any, feel free to point them out. I know WHSmith is a
> difficult case, so I won't touch it without prior discussion.
>> Where you are 'correcting' tagging based just on the name tag, how can you
>> be sure its not an administrative office, distribution depot or something
>> else other than a shop?
> I look at location of course. I only changed high street / retail
> centre locations. In other cases, I added OSM notes.
> So personally I think I have sufficient checks in place to not
> overwrite useful data.
> That said, I don't mind reverting some or all of my changes if you
> consider them controversial, and discussing them beforehand. If so,
> please specify which changes you refer to.
> -- Matthijs

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