[Talk-GB] UK Retail chains

Andy Robinson ajrlists at gmail.com
Tue Oct 28 16:05:52 UTC 2014


Yes, mapping is so much more fun than politicking.

 

Lets get back to basics J

 

Firstly it’s a single building, yes? The next thing I’d want to know is whether it’s under one ownership or tenant (co-op) or if the post office area sub-let. If the former its all the co-op with a post office facility inside so I’d map the building as the co-op (with all its attributes) and add the post office data to a node inside (or I guess an internal sub-building area if it was obvious but I don’t tend to get into that level of detail). If it’s the latter then I’d want to understand how the two work in partnership with each other (opening times etc) and then map as best fits but probably very similar if not the same as the first option. In this way its nested differently than if there were two distinct nodes, the latter being only solvable with a relation or by looking for all nodes within a common area way.

 

The post office may have a name, traditionally they do and its possible it carries the same name forward but just not externally on a sign.

 

There should always be a logical solution. If it’s not logical, it’s probably not right in some way.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: SK53 [mailto:sk53.osm at gmail.com] 
Sent: 28 October 2014 15:42
To: Dan S
Cc: Talk GB
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] UK Retail chains

 

Came across the Ballachulish Co-op and Post Office <http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/56.67729/-5.13067>  today which illustrates some of the issues which have been discussed in this thread rather nicely.

I think that someone has split this into two nodes, ostensibly one for the PO and one for the shop. The shop tag is however on both, once as a supermarket, once as a convenience store. Opening hours are provided on the post office node.

Apart from the basic problem that the shop has been duplicated, there are some other issues:

*	Outside the shop is probably called The Co-operative Food 
*	I doubt if there are any visible signs calling the post office bit is named Ballachulish Post Office 
*	Technically it is almost certainly a sub-post office (not I think usually used in names
*	The distinct opening hours of the shop and the post office have been added. This raises how one validates nested opening hours of this kind (also applies to hotels, shopping centres etc).

Clearly this would be better mapped with the main Co-op shop (and 14 years ago it was definitely a convenience store) as an area, with the PO box as a node in approximately the right location. Opening hours would be needed for both as I would expect the post office to be closed on Saturday afternoons at least ( I remember buying ice cream here late on a Saturday 'cos the tea shops weren't interested in new custom at 16:45). Personally I would not expect a name on the post office (perhaps an admin_name might work). 

The current mapping using two nodes is ambiguous as to the relationship of the two elements, something which does not happen when overloading non-colliding tags on a single element.

Remember that the "post office in" situation is merely a nice exemplar of a more widespread issue. Finding a sensible and pragmatic way of mapping, and then documenting it, would help in all the other places where this crops up.

Jerry

 

On 25 October 2014 20:19, Dan S <danstowell+osm at gmail.com> wrote:

2014-10-25 20:14 GMT+01:00 ael <law_ence.dev at ntlworld.com>:
> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 07:39:49PM +0100, Dan S wrote:
>> 2014-10-25 17:48 GMT+01:00 ael <law_ence.dev at ntlworld.com>:
>> >> >I have made a large update to the UK retail chain page:
>> >> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UK_Retail_Chains
>> >
>> > I am not sure that this is on topic here, but I didn't see the Post
>> > Office there. Presumably it now counts now as a private business,
>> > although perhaps not quite "retail".
>> >
>> > Our local main office has just closed and moved to a shop within a
>> > shop (W H Smith in this case). A quick wiki search didn't get a hit
>> > on how to tag this sort of sub shop, although I know, of course, that
>> > this is a common situation with department stores.
>> >
>> > Is there an agreed way to tag this? Just add amenity=post_office
>> > to the to the same node as the shop tag? Or add a second node? Or
>> > something else?
>>
>> Hi -
>>
>> I certainly would not add it to the same node. It's only coincidence
>> that the tag is a different key so it lets you do that - and after all
>> it may have different name=*, different opening_hours=*, etc. A second
>
> That's true. I would have noticed when I tried to do it :-)
>
> However two nodes with standard tags don't distinguish "W H Smiths
> inside Post office" from the inverse. That seems a useful distinction.
> sub_shop=yes is ugly, but perhaps something along these lines already
> exists or is needed?

This may have been discussed heavily elsewhere, I don't know. My own
opinion is that if you need something to be _inside_ something else,
there's no point trying to do that just with nodes, since areas are
perfect for the job!

Dan

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