[Talk-GB] Edits in Wales
bprangle at gmail.com
Fri Aug 11 16:19:42 UTC 2017
There is indeed a problem. A newcomer (a visitor to our country whose first
language is not English) wants to improve the data and goes to the first
source of what is seen to be the authoritative source - the wiki- to seek
guidance, and then asks, from etiquette, what the local community thinks,
only to initially get varying opinions from mappers who don't live in Wales
( not sure whether they're Welsh speakers or not); rather than from local
mappers who might be Welsh speakers. Comments from English mappers I
believe just don't have the same weight as they don't live in a country
with another language (in fact with any language) having official status
and shouldn't be taken as adequate guidance, hence the advice to stick with
So what is he to do? Follow the wiki, which has been implemented so far as
I know at least in regions of Spain and Belgium, and has a specific section
on Welsh placenames to which he refers (which seems pretty sensible and
uncontentious to me and has not changed much since 2009) or just end up
confused and de-motivated? This is why I believe an organised local
community is so important- it is not to decry the contributions of local
mappers- it is a repository of local knowledge and practices to which a
newcomer can turn.
*It is definitely not about the superiority of meeting in pubs- how on
earth did that get in? - or about encouraging unknowledgable outsiders to
undermine the efforts of local mappers. What do either of these assertions
add to the conversation, except to lower its tone?*
*Can this discussion specifically address what is wrong with the wiki page
on Welsh placenames
<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales> and suggest
Can the wiki be edited to reflect any changes that are necessary, in order
to improve it and ensure that the next newcomer has some documented
guidance that is also locally acceptable so that we don't have the
experienced decrying the inexperienced for believing the wiki when, to
paraphrase, anyone with any experience knows it's for guidance only and not
to be taken as a gold standard. How on earth is anyone "not in the know"
to act without being seen as naive and attracting negative comments? It's
not very welcoming and as an aside I believe that this attitude is part of
the reason why we don't keep new mappers and why our diversity is narrow.
I'm also hoping that this discussion might kickstart OMSUK's Welsh language
render project - I wasn't aware of cy osm - is it still live? (a Google
search gives a url with a blank page).
On 11 August 2017 at 09:37, Richard Fairhurst <richard at systemed.net> wrote:
> Brian Prangle wrote:
> > You have raised a subject which needs attention but we don't
> > have an active community in Wales, just individual mappers
> I don't find that a helpful distinction. Aside from a few places (London,
> Birmingham, Edinburgh, the North-East Midlands), OSM in the UK doesn't have
> localised "communities" in the sense of people meeting up as per German
> stammtisch, and never has done. We have historically been an agglomeration
> of lone rangers.
> Self-evidently there's nothing wrong with that (we've built a brilliant
> map), and it doesn't mean that those individual mappers haven't together
> evolved precedent. On many issues, we have. I, and other local mappers,
> would be a bit miffed if someone came along and said "I'm going to change
> how you map Oxfordshire" and someone from a different part of Britain
> in with "feel free, they don't go to the pub together like we do so that's
> absolutely fine".
> > We need to find a solution to this problem.
> It's not necessarily proven that we do. Welsh OSM users created the first
> non-English language OSM map back in 2008 (Chris Jones's cyosm rendering).
> In my (extensive) travels in Wales, it seems increasingly frequent that the
> Welsh-language street name is either the sole name or the top name of
> signs in Welsh-speaking areas such as Aber and the Llyn, and not written at
> all in predominantly English areas such as most of the South. Aber is
> historically a hotbed of Welsh activism and rightly so, but showing a
> / English" split in (say) Newport, Gwent, would seem ridiculous to locals
> and visitors alike.
> Because British signage and naming is erratic - we don't have a canonical,
> open, officially mandated list of place and street names like some other
> countries do - it's not uncommon to find a situation where one end of the
> street might be signposted "Heol y Mor [linebreak] Sea Road" and the other
> simply "Heol y Mor". Or where a sign might be in one language, but the road
> known universally by locals in another. Applying an arbitrary rule in these
> situations will not result in the map that makes most sense to most people
> or that best reflects local culture.
> I would rather follow a locally evolved consensus than unthinkingly apply
> international wiki-mandated hack everywhere (and let's be clear, putting
> values in one field with an arbitrary ASCII character as a separator is a
> hack). Newport is no more "Newport / Casnewydd" than Dolgellau is
> / Dolgelley", even though both have Welsh and English names and both are in
> a country where the Welsh Language Act applies. Miguel, I'm sure you have
> good intentions and it's great to see your work, but using an Overpass
> to enforce a wiki guideline then uploading it with Level0 is pretty much
> canonical opposite of how we build the map in the UK. ;)
> The wiki documents but does not dictate, and it does not trump precedent.
> There is a lot of inconsistent nonsense on the wiki: it's not the gospel
> truth for OSM.
> View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.
> Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
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