[Talk-GB] Tagging "Shared space" roads (Preston City Centre)

Adam Snape adam.c.snape at gmail.com
Tue Oct 3 12:15:12 UTC 2017


Hi,

"So I'd be OK with any of highway=* plus access tags; shared_space=yes;
traffic_calming=shared_space; or maybe even go for duck tagging them as
highway=shared_space?"

I'm not sure highway=shared_space is any more duck tagging than
highway=unclassified etc.  To me the primary characteristic we consider for
highway classification in OSM has always been official classification
(motorway, trunk, primary etc.). A UK primary road can vary wildly in
character  from an NSL dual carriageway, to a 20mph city street, to a
single track road, Do the A5149 and A523 really cease to be primary and
trunk roads respectively because they meet in the centre of Poynton's
shared space scheme ( http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2935971 ) ? I
believe this example shows shared space should be considered to be a
feature of a highway, not the determining factor in its classification.

East Street in Horsham is another (sort of) example of a shared space and
has been tagged with the pedestrian/access tags method by lakedistrict. In
fact, the OSM wiki example of highway=pedestrian with access tags gets
pretty close to what I think of as a shared space, although there are some
differences in the priorities that are implied.

As promised, I did contact lakedistrict when I started this thread because
he first raised the living_streets issue in Preston. In his response he
said that he believed that living_streets should be restricted to signed
Home Zones and highway=pedestrian should be restricted to  signed
pedestrian streets, so I suspect teh Horsham example is probably signed as
a pedestrian street.

That '(sort of) example of shared use' raises another question about
hanging our highway classification on shared use, namely verfiiability. In
the UK shared use consists of an assortment of experimental road schemes,
signage is inconsistent and non-standard. Is it enough for some elements of
the design to be influenced by shared use, or should it be explicitly
signed? A minority of the streets tagged by Pete in Preston are explicitly
signed, with the rest being fairly quiet streets in the city centre with no
special signage on the ground.  It may be that there's a council document
somewhere labelling these as part of the scheme, but of course we can't use
that kind of document.

Kind regards,

Adam



On 2 October 2017 at 22:39, Matt Ellery <matt.ellery at gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with the idea that living_street isn't appropriate for the town
> centre roads identified here. I did notice that New Road in Brighton
> (mentioned in the shared space Wikipedia article) has also been changed to
> living_street by Pete Owens, although he has added access tags as well.
>
> East Street in Horsham is another (sort of) example of a shared space and
> has been tagged with the pedestrian/access tags method by lakedistrict. In
> fact, the OSM wiki example of highway=pedestrian with access tags gets
> pretty close to what I think of as a shared space, although there are some
> differences in the priorities that are implied.
>
> So I'd be OK with any of highway=* plus access tags; shared_space=yes;
> traffic_calming=shared_space; or maybe even go for duck tagging them as
> highway=shared_space?
>
> Regards,
> Matt
>
> On 2 October 2017 at 12:35, Adam Snape <adam.c.snape at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The photo of Exhibition Rd on Wikipedia makes it look deserted. I guess
>> it is sensible to photograph a new road layout at a quiet time.  I actually
>> walked along it not so long ago when visiting a museum and it certainly
>> seemed to still be used by quite a lot of motor traffic. Not that I think
>> traffic volume should necessarily determine tagging, but examples such as
>> this, the primary roads in Poynton, anda couple of thoroughfares in
>> Preston, do rather weaken the comparison to Home Zones or woonerven. There
>> traffic would typically be very light, very slow and almost entirely for
>> access. The more I look at the above examples, the more I am convinced that
>> the presence of shared use design doesn't make these thoroughfares
>> comparable to living_streets
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> On 2 October 2017 at 08:56, Paul Berry <pmberry2007 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> One of the most significant shared space street schemes in the country
>>> (at least, the one that got the most publicity) is Exhibition Road. Here's
>>> part of it: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/34401602 and it's mapped
>>> as living street even though it is not residential.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhibition_Road
>>>
>>> Should it be changed also?
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> *Paul*
>>>
>>> On 1 October 2017 at 23:17, Colin Smale <colin.smale at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And here's a road that wants to be a shared space but isn't there yet...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/NHnieuws/videos/1627424217288914/
>>>>
>>>> The goal of reducing the traffic speed has been achieved, apparently.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 2017-10-01 20:16, Richard Mann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The classic shared space scheme in Haren:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/53.17312/6.60310
>>>>
>>>> has no tags that I can see.
>>>>
>>>> I'd go for something like shared_space=yes for the moment. It's a
>>>> "special" type of traffic calming.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 6:14 PM, Colin Smale <colin.smale at xs4all.nl>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Just like in the UK, the councils here make it up as they go along; a
>>>>> "shared space" has no special legal status, unlike a "woonerf".
>>>>>
>>>>> A general principle which has proved its worth is that to make things
>>>>> safer, you remove the safety features. Like white lines and kerbs. Everyone
>>>>> moans a bit, but in the mean time you slow down and watch out just that
>>>>> little bit more... Hence shared spaces, an apparent free-for-all that works
>>>>> well.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2017-10-01 18:57, Andy Townsend wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Not an answer, but a suggestion where there might be a bit m
>>>>> ore info...
>>>>>
>>>>> The Netherlands forum https://forum.openstreetmap.or
>>>>> g/viewforum.php?id=12 might be worth a read, since the shared space
>>>>> concept was pioneered there; https://forum.openstreetmap.or
>>>>> g/viewtopic.php?id=54843 is directly about "shared_space" but a
>>>>> search for "woonerf" (aka "home zone") gets a whole bunch more hits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Andy
>>>>>
>>>>>
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