[Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

Sun Mar 25 15:18:23 UTC 2018

Hi Miguel

Thanks for the thoughts.

Personally I'm against bilingual labelling though I recognise that this is
common and uncontroversial in other parts of OSM.

My thought process has been like this:

   - There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have a
   name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
   they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
   names used.
   - So the most important thing is that we label them with the English and
   Welsh name tags.
   - What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
   alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
   - But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
   have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in the
   name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
   England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
   in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that but
   I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
   status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
   mapping decision.
   - In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
   when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
   politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
   - The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is correct.
   In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are correct then the
   value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up to the
   user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if both
   which language taking priority).

To address your specific question [3] what I would do when seeing a panel
displaying the Welsh and English name would be to add the values to name:en
and name:cy and then add one of those to the name tag. The choice of which
one to add to the name tag would be:
- if I know which one is used when communicating in English, choose that
- of I don't know, choose the Welsh name

But I'd be interested to understand more about the practice used in other
bilingual/multilingual nations on OSM.

Cheers

Ben

On 23 March 2018 at 23:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo <msevilla00 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,
>
> I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd
> considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name"
> tag: the bilingual one.
>
> So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of
> the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both
> languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications
> and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a
> real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.
>
> What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual
> panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name
> as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country
> [3].
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] follow this threat from the beginning: https://lists.openstreetmap.
> org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
> [2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor <ben at satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
>> communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
>> doubt look for local usage / signage.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
>> place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
>> may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
>> name in Welsh.*
>>
>> *Examples:*
>> *name - Swansea*
>> *name:cy - Abertawe*
>>
>> *name - Caernarfon*
>> *name:cy - Caernarfon*
>>
>> *name - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:en - Church Road*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape <adam.c.snape at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
>>> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
>>> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
>>> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or
>>> 'alternative' (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because
>>> there is no consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>>>
>>> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
>>> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
>>> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
>>> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
>>> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F <davefoxfac63 at btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not
>>>>>> dictate how they should map.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method,
>>>>> not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> DaveF
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ben Proctor, Technical Director
>>
>> *The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=22+Windsor+Place+Cardiff.+CF10+3BY+Wales,+UK&entry=gmail&source=g>
>>
>> ben at satorilab.org | @likeawor <https://twitter.com/likeaword>d | 07904
>> 1234 98 | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/>
>>
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>>
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>>
>

-- 
Ben Proctor, Technical Director

*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK

ben at satorilab.org | @likeawor <https://twitter.com/likeaword>d | 07904 1234
98 | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/>

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