[Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

Warin 61sundowner at gmail.com
Mon Mar 26 20:43:30 UTC 2018


Hummm ....

There area number of places around me that have name:ru ... yet there 
are no signs with this language on them.
And there are some in other languages too...

I see nothing wrong with that. These names do not have to be present on 
a local sign.

So I see nothing wrong with having name:cy where you may not find a sign 
with that Welsh name on it.

The "name" tag value should carry the value that the majority use in the 
local community, if that is reflected on local signs, good.

For rendering .. I would use the 'name' value where I wanted a map with 
the local names/languages.
Where I wanted to produce a map in a certain language - say English I 
would use the 'name:en', if that does not exist I'd use the fall back 
'name'.


On 26/03/18 23:04, Gregory wrote:
> The OpenStreetMap rule for all time has been "what's on the ground is 
> what we use", in the case of names that would be what's on the road 
> signs.
>
> I was in Wales last week and saw a mix of road names (I didn't focus 
> on place names, but it should still stand):
> 1)Welshon top line, English below.
> 2) English on top line,Welshbelow.
> 3)Welshonly.
> It seemed consistent for areas, maybe relating to how old the streets 
> were or politics - I think this is interesting enough.
>
> I would tag it the streets always with 2-3 name tags...
> A) name:cy and name:en used whenever they are present on a sign. Do 
> not transliterate. When we have a complete map, this then provides 
> insight into the areas (where and % of roads) actually have Bilingual 
> names.
> B) You should additionally add a "name" value. My preference is for 
> the name on the top line. I can see the argument for putting both/all 
> names in, but I think this gets messy as OpenStreetMap doesn't have 
> the concept of a separator.
>
> The "name" tag is a used as a fallback (what a German-language map 
> would show, what aWelsh-language map would show if no name:cy, etc). 
> You should think of it as a fallback name, rather than a default name.
> This can then provide us with insight, what streets haveWelshas the 
> primary name (name:cy = name)?
>
>
> While in Wales, I did do some filming so I could demonstrate how to 
> map bilingual names/places. I've not finished the editing yet, but can 
> share a link when it's published.
>
>
> From England,
> Gregory.
>
>
> On 25 March 2018 at 23:13, ajt1047 at gmail.com 
> <mailto:ajt1047 at gmail.com> <ajt1047 at gmail.com 
> <mailto:ajt1047 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 25/03/2018 21:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo wrote:
>>     ...
>>     Sorry to insist but you will undermine, especially, Welsh names,
>>     for a generic rendering that uses "name" tags. Think about that.
>
>     Can you give a specific example of that?  Are you saying that
>     "it's important to pretend that Welsh names are displayed even
>     where they aren't used very often" by sticking them on the end of
>     the more commonly used name? The other way around (using Welsh in
>     "name" because it is the most used name) presumably wouldn't
>     "undermine ... Welsh names".  It could be that I'm completely
>     misunderstanding what you're saying here but I really don't follow
>     the argument at all.
>
>>
>>     Of course, for me, it's a must to fill "name:cy" and "name:en" too.
>
>     That's great news - it'll allow maps like
>     https://openstreetmap.cymru/ (and mine!) to render appropriate
>     names in appropriate areas.
>
>
>>     On 25 March 2018 at 20:30, Curon Davies <curond at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:curond at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>               * The fundamental problem is that there is no "name"
>>                 which is correct. In the medium term, as long as the
>>                 name:cy and name:en are correct then the value of
>>                 "name" should become less significant. Then it can be
>>                 up to the user to decide if they want to display
>>                 English, Welsh or both (and if both which language
>>                 taking priority).
>>
>>         The problem currently, is that display choice isn't available.
>>
>
>     I don't think that that's actually true - I can think of at least
>     3 choices right now:
>
>       * OSM "Standard map" (and a number of others), which just use
>         the "name" tag:
>
>
>     https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565
>     <https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.88362/-5.26565>
>
>       * Openstreetmap.cymru, which uses "name:cy":
>
>
>     https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407&ll=-5.264972448348999&ch=17
>     <https://openstreetmap.cymru?h=51.88397494833407&ll=-5.264972448348999&ch=17>
>
>       * Mine, that show one of "name:cy", "name:en", "name:ga" or
>         "name" depending on location:
>
>
>     http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18&lat=51.883531&lon=-5.264898
>     <http://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/map.html#zoom=18&lat=51.883531&lon=-5.264898>
>
>     and of course anyone making their own maps (Garmin etc.) can do
>     whatever they want.
>
>     Best Regards,
>
>     Andy
>
>     PS: Apologies to Curon if his message wasn't meant for the list -
>     I'm guessing that it was but that he's actually not subscribed yet
>     and his reply went both to that and Miguel.
>

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