[Talk-GB] Removal of redundant NaPTAN data

Stuart Reynolds stuart at travelinesoutheast.org.uk
Thu Apr 4 09:48:55 UTC 2019

What do you mean by “pay scale”? Are you meaning the definition of a stop as a fare stage, or as part of a zone?

If so, then this data needs to be deleted, forthwith, as it will never be right. Outside of the regulated market that is London, different stops can be fare stages for different operators, even when they are running similar services along the same corridor routes. It is completely deregulated. And that’s before we get onto zonal fares, which will have a different allocation of stops to zones.

The Bus Services Act 2017 makes provision for the Secretary of State to require bus companies to publish their fares data. There is a lot of work going on at the minute within the industry to define how this will be done, but the general principle (and this is all in the public domain) is that a) operators will publish the data themselves; b) it will be discoverable via a portal that the DfT will provide; and c) it is likely to use the CEN “NeTEx” XML schema to do so. We are currently defining what the UK profile for this will look like. Fares, though, won’t be mandatory until much later on - the focus is initially on getting the provision of routes and timetables.

Some of this information will be “static” (or at least semi-static) i.e. stops allocated to zones which will change infrequently. An individual operator’s fare stages may also be relatively stable, but there is no guarantee of that. So I don’t think that this should ever form part of a database like OSM simply because of its lack of permanence. At best, it will be an aligned data set IMHO.

Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia

On 4 Apr 2019, at 10:37, Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com<mailto:ajt1047 at gmail.com>> wrote:

On 04/04/2019 09:38, Brian Prangle wrote:
Hi everyone

Back in the day of the original NapPTAN import we imported pay scale areas - tagged as public_transport=pay_scale_area. I don't know why we ever did this - there's no evidence on the ground and it's highly unlikely that any OSM data consumer makes use of them ( if indeed they are still current).

I actually did use the local ones (when they were accurate), but as the bus companies changed their rules I deleted them because they were just wrong.

The information is better in public_transport applications run by public transport bodies

Can you give an example of where such information might be found?  I could hesitate a guess*, but I suspect not every reader of this list in the future would necessarily be aware of that.

So I'm proposing that they are all deleted

The equivalent for anywhere with a sane public transport system might object, but it could be that no such place exists outside London...

Best Regards,


* locally a combination of the council website, Bus company websites, Traveline and Google Maps are all likely to be equally wrong in different ways.  There is no authoritative answer.  When services were withdrawn due to government cuts last year the best answer was usually to ask the driver when a particular service would stop running.

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