[Talk-GB] Terraced Houses Mapping - JOSM and iD

Rupert Allan mail at rupertallan.com
Sat Apr 10 18:26:21 UTC 2021


Dear Jerry and Frederik and group,

I shall try to keep my response brief:
Map Uganda also offer or are able to offer commercial services according to
their constitution... So your reply appears to be incomplete.
*Thanks for making it more complete, and pointing me to this material. *

I'd like to make a quick few additional points.

* Analytical uses of OSM. Although I've been an advocate for these for a
number of years, Professor Muki Hakaly's more cautious position
<https://povesham.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/when-not-to-use-crowdsourced-data/>
is still very wise, and should always be considered before embarking on a
project.
*I know Muki Haklay, share several of his opinions, and have cited his work
many times. I agree that OSM is not always the solution. I state this in
published work and abstracts.*

* Open data in the UK. The UK has been at the forefront at opening up
geographical data since 2010 (not least because of OSM's own advocacy).
This means that reasonable building footprints are available for analytical
purposes via Open Map Local. With the addition of Open UPRNs it is possible
to quickly identify likely terraces & their number of houses. Additional
open data is available relating to indexes of multiple deprivation etc.
Most of these data can immediately be used, processed and visualised in a
GIS tool without any need to add buildings to OSM via a crowd sourced
approach with all the vagaries implied. Even if one wants to add buildings
to OSM a simple selection of buildings from the Open Map Local which did
not overlap with OSM buildings would have quickly given a much larger
building set.
*When we downloaded Open Map Local, the data seemed to not so good, but I
am happy to be guided how to use Open UPRNs to improve this. However, the
importance of 'locally-generated' bottom-up data remains as an ethical
standard, as is the overall desire for an independent way to generate
visualisations. For clarity, HERE
<http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/map-of-arua-sub-counties-showing-health-centres-sh_264100#11/3.2608/30.9928>
is a rudimentary example of some data in Uganda which was useful for
viewing near-border resources per population.*

* Local Authority access to high quality GIS data. Most LAs in the UK have
access to incredibly detailed, well-attributed OS Master Map data through
the PMSA. They also usually have one or more GIS officers who are well
experienced with such data. I've had the pleasure of meeting a few at GIS
User Groups & Open Data Camps in the past.
*This is great. I look forward to meeting these people in the locale, and
shall defer to as much of that skill as possible.*

* Local Authority awareness of deprivation. LAs in deprived areas run
multiple service lines which interact with deprived communities on a daily
basis: Education, Social Services, Housing as well as public health. Most
of these are these days data savvy. There is at least in England a national
database of people who have been in education in the last 20-odd years with
much information which has been used for data mining to identify
educational issues related to deprivation, such as risk of children
becoming NEETs (not in education or training), work done by a friend who
was education psychologist at Sandwell in the West Midlands. I suspect LAs
collectively have a good grasp on local deprivation issues.
*I am glad if this seems the case in the West Midlands. I am told it is not
the case in South Wales. I have no idea if this is true or not, but having
lived and worked in the area (in youth and community advocacy), have
certainly experienced local authorities who did not seem aware of a
comprehensive grasp of the above. Witness the ongoing long-term issues in
those communities.*

* Public Health organisations themselves often make use of geographical
information: e.g., location of pubs & social clubs in relation to
alcohol-related health issues, fast food outlets near schools etc.
*Yes, and this is a request that they learn to make better use of OSM data.
Institutional trainings in OSM will be planned.*

* Academic study of deprivation. There are a lot of academic geographers
with interests in deprivation across many universities in the UK, who I'm
sure would be willing to help at this time of crisis.
*Wonderful. Do you have anybody particularly in mind for this area?*

All told I'm sceptical that anything OSM could do would be useful in a
short-time scale compared with numerous other resources which are available.
*Thanks Jerry, I'll bear this in mind.*

*Best,*

*Rupert*




On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 11:19 AM SK53 <sk53.osm at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Rupert,
>
> Map Uganda also offer or are able to offer commercial services according
> to their constitution.This was discussed extensively
> <https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2020-November/007423.html>
> during their successful application for local chapter status with OSMF.and
> there was a diary entry, which I can't find right now, discussing the
> general principle to which both Rob Nickerson & I responded. So your reply
> appears to be incomplete.
>
> In terms of an actual project, I must say I'm completely lost now with a
> detailed thread about the niceties of tagging terraced housing (which I
> think is a useful discussion), deprivation in Merthyr, and community
> projects mapping buildings. I'd like to make a quick few additional points.
>
> * Analytical uses of OSM. Although I've been an advocate for these for a
> number of years, Professor Muki Hakaly's more cautious position
> <https://povesham.wordpress.com/2014/06/01/when-not-to-use-crowdsourced-data/>
> is still very wise, and should always be considered before embarking on a
> project.
>
> * Open data in the UK. The UK has been at the forefront at opening up
> geographical data since 2010 (not least because of OSM's own advocacy).
> This means that reasonable building footprints are available for analytical
> purposes via Open Map Local. With the addition of Open UPRNs it is possible
> to quickly identify likely terraces & their number of houses. Additional
> open data is available relating to indexes of multiple deprivation etc.
> Most of these data can immediately be used, processed and visualised in a
> GIS tool without any need to add buildings to OSM via a crowd sourced
> approach with all the vagaries implied. Even if one wants to add buildings
> to OSM a simple selection of buildings from the Open Map Local which did
> not overlap with OSM buildings would have quickly given a much larger
> building set.
>
> * Local Authority access to high quality GIS data. Most LAs in the UK have
> access to incredibly detailed, well-attributed OS Master Map data through
> the PMSA. They also usually have one or more GIS officers who are well
> experienced with such data. I've had the pleasure of meeting a few at GIS
> User Groups & Open Data Camps in the past.
>
> * Local Authority awareness of deprivation. LAs in deprived areas run
> multiple service lines which interact with deprived communities on a daily
> basis: Education, Social Services, Housing as well as public health. Most
> of these are these days data savvy. There is at least in England a national
> database of people who have been in education in the last 20-odd years with
> much information which has been used for data mining to identify
> educational issues related to deprivation, such as risk of children
> becoming NEETs (not in education or training), work done by a friend who
> was education psychologist at Sandwell in the West Midlands. I suspect LAs
> collectively have a good grasp on local deprivation issues.
>
> * Public Health organisations themselves often make use of geographical
> information: e.g., location of pubs & social clubs in relation to
> alcohol-related health issues, fast food outlets near schools etc.
>
> * Academic study of deprivation. There are a lot of academic geographers
> with interests in deprivation across many universities in the UK, who I'm
> sure would be willing to help at this time of crisis.
>
> All told I'm sceptical that anything OSM could do would be useful in a
> short-time scale compared with numerous other resources which are available.
>
> Jerry Clough
>
> PS. It's a long time since I had anything to do with Public Health, but I
> did consult to a wide range of Health Authorities on public health data
> issues across the UK in the early 1990s, and built the prototype data
> dashboard for a DHSS pilot information system for such bodies in 1992.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 10 Apr 2021 at 00:44, Rupert Allan <mail at rupertallan.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Frederick.
>>
>> MapUganda are an CIC/non-profit tech NGO in Uganda, using and training
>> OSM for humanitarian response, social inclusion and development purposes.
>>
>> It is a very important question to ask. Sorry I was not clearer.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Rupert
>>
>>
>>
>> UK: +44 (0)7970 540 647
>> Skype: Reuben Molotov
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 23:38 Frederik Ramm, <frederik at remote.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 4/9/21 20:34, Rupert Allan wrote:
>>> > The intention of this project, once launched, is very much that local
>>> > mappers are mapping South Wales - their own community priorities, on
>>> > their own terms. For everybody's information, these
>>> 'mapathon-friendly'
>>> > small-area tasks were meant for use as a demonstration/pilot
>>>
>>> Can I ask in what context this "demonstration/pilot" is planned to be
>>> used? Is MapUganda a commercial entity intending to follow companies
>>> like GlobalLogic in selling low-cost human mapping labour to companies
>>> all over the world, or what is the roadmap for this kind of activity?
>>>
>>> This is an important question because if this was a harmless one-off we
>>> could all just say, ok, that didn't work, they had good intentions but
>>> botched it, no harm done, lesson learned, move on - but if you are
>>> planning to do this frequently in the future because there's a profit
>>> motive there, then "no harm done, move on" won't cut it; in that case
>>> we'd have to request that you thoroughly reform your entire approach
>>> with better communications, better training, and better work quality
>>> before you even think of presenting this to anyone as a viable pilot for
>>> anything.
>>>
>>> Bye
>>> Frederik
>>>
>>> --
>>> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frederik at remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Talk-GB mailing list
>>> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Talk-GB mailing list
>> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
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>>
>

-- 

Rupert Allan:

Spatial Intervention Design, Research

In Print:  'Motorcycle-Mapping: Modalities of United Statelessness' in
*Mapping Crisis: Participation, Datafication and Humanitarianism in
the Age of Digital Mapping*
<https://www.sas.ac.uk/publications/mapping-crisis> (University of
London/Chicago Press, Human Rights Consortium
<https://www.sas.ac.uk/projects-and-initiatives/human-rights-consortium>)

UK: +44 (0)7970 540 647
Skype: Reuben Molotov
MARINE CALL SIGN: 24VN3 <https://www.facebook.com/rupertanddorry/>

FRGS, Missing Maps/HOT OSM Voting Member
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