[Talk-GB] Terraced Houses Mapping - JOSM and iD

Jez Nicholson jez.nicholson at gmail.com
Thu Apr 15 12:06:43 UTC 2021


I started a Loomio Time Poll
https://www.loomio.org/p/v9rGJbMH/meet-rupert-allen-for-background-on-plans-for-organised-mapping-in-wales
to pick a time Mon-Thurs next week.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 9:32 PM Brian Prangle <bprangle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Rupert
>
> Merthyr improving all the time - keep at it. I'm picking away at Ebbw Vale
> as my major effort for the Q2 UK quarterly project
> Your jab side effects should pass soon - my Pfizer ones were very mild-
> 2nd jab Sat!
> I think your idea of the default remote mapping mode being the OSMUK
> community will work so much better in the future and who knows possibly
> when we are allowed to move about more freely there may be volunteers who
> would like a change of scene and actually visit Merthyr and the valleys for
> some on the ground surveying away from their usual haunts.
> You can set up a Doodle poll if you like but it takes time so could I
> suggest Wed 21 at 730 using Jez's BlueButton OSMUK meeting? Your call.
>
> Regards
>
> Brian
>
> On Wed, 14 Apr 2021 at 20:07, Rupert Allan <mail at rupertallan.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Brian, Jez and group,
>>
>> Thanks for the offer to host a call, Jez. Brian, when would be the best
>> time? IS there a customary procedure to set this up? (doodle poll, email
>> thread...?)
>>
>> I am not feeling great post-vaccine (Moderna), but have joined-in chasing
>> bad edits around (some made well outside of the tasks, and long after they
>> were taken down). Inside the tasks, almost all is validated, (not
>> showing done, as the tasks remain private), but areas outside the tasks
>> will not be validated under a task on the HOT Tasking Manager. I was going
>> to ask the Missing Maps mid-month mapathon to help with this, subject to
>> your advice. This Mapathon *is specifically run for advanced mapping
>> tasks*, but I am by no means pushing for this *in any way*, given the
>> recent events.
>>
>> For now, I'll continue the Micron changeset hunt, although Sam seems to
>> be on top of it (are people finding many new changesets, still?). I
>> personally am not in touch with Micron21, but I believe HOT/MM have
>> approached some members. I'm cc-ing Sam to comment is necessary. Please
>> advise on the protocol for me approaching them.
>>
>> May I say I am sincerely grateful to all OSM UK editors who have helped
>> try to correct this unfortunately timed project. Apparently the micron
>> problem extends far beyond the UK, and Sam, in his day job (working for HOT
>> on their remote mapathon projects) sounds up to his neck in this, too.
>> OSM UK at least can be proud that it was the first group in the world to
>> spot the problem.
>>
>> Look forward to the zoom call, and a chance to explain myself a bit more,
>> Sam's role, Remote Mapping and Field Mapping ideas/ideals, and most of all
>> to ask further advice/guidance from the group.
>>
>> Should this project be deemed worth continuing, may I request blending an
>> earlier suggestion (a separate task on the OSM UK Tasking Manager instance)
>> with the idea of OSM UK being more involved/running(?) the remote
>> mapping? OSM UK could judge if they/you wanted to select any curated
>> elements of help from the humanitarian community, should it be deemed
>> appropriate. There will always be room for improvement, and of course the
>> ideal would be to fill the map with more public and community-prioritised
>> field/verification data, eventually.
>>
>> Best.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 5:28 PM Brian Prangle <bprangle at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jez
>>>
>>> Thanks for the offer and some clarification.  I'm sure Rupert's
>>> intentions are honourable given his engagement on this thread, I'm just
>>> critical of his project management which the Micron issue exemplifies ( Why
>>> wasn't it spotted much earlier? ).  I also think there's much to improve on
>>> communication and engagement. There's lots to learn for us here.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 16:31, Jez Nicholson <jez.nicholson at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>
>>>> I've spoken to Rupert as he initially consulted with me as an OSMUK
>>>> Local Chapter board member before bringing his idea to the list.
>>>>
>>>> Micron are nothing to do with him. It appears they are a mapping group
>>>> causing problems in a number of places worldwide on OSM. Mappers from
>>>> Micron found and used the Tasking Manager projects (plural) that Rupert had
>>>> set up as research. Tasking Manager projects are not private - something
>>>> that HOT may need to change.
>>>>
>>>> Rupert is writing a feasibility study and is not actively changing any
>>>> data. The intention is to gain funding to organise local mapping from
>>>> residents based on experience from Missing Maps/HOT but *not* sponsored by
>>>> MM/HOT. This could involve some remote mapping, but not primarily.
>>>>
>>>> There are a lot of ideas involved, but I think you'll find that his
>>>> intentions are entirely honourable and do involve empowering local people
>>>> to build their own map.
>>>>
>>>> OSMUK Local Chapter would be happy to host a call on BigBlueButton for
>>>> Rupert to explain his ideas in person.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>               Jez
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 1:44 PM Brian Prangle <bprangle at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Rupert
>>>>>
>>>>> Wales *projects*? You mean there's more than this one?  Who precisely
>>>>> are Micron and how did they get involved and how come no-one knew this
>>>>> until Sam intervened? Is Sam collaborating with you only on the cleanup or
>>>>> has he been there from the initiation? I'm a little frustrated that
>>>>> information seems to be dripping out slowly with each communication from
>>>>> you. Zoom calls are fine for me any evening after 630pm , hopefully that
>>>>> goes for others in the UK OSM community. I'd  like to see at least one
>>>>> OSMUK Chapter Board member on the call too.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Brian
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 at 11:17, Rupert Allan <mail at rupertallan.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Brian,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, this was Sam, who is collaborating with me, who was kindly
>>>>>> putting in some hours over the weekend to speed up the validation process.
>>>>>> His summary was this: 'Turns out the Wales projects were subject to a
>>>>>> deluge of untrained beginner mappers from an org called Micron (not a
>>>>>> parter of HOT's or any other org)'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know that this does not make it right,
>>>>>> as it highlights the vulnerable position that Tasking Manager puts
>>>>>> the map in. I am expecting to do more this week, after my covid vaccination
>>>>>> this evening, and hope it doesn't put me out of action. I shall be hoping
>>>>>> to use the time off work to do some validating.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can you advise on the best timing for a Zoom, Brian?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Rupert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> UK: +44 (0)7970 540 647
>>>>>> Skype: Reuben Molotov
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 13 Apr 2021, 10:21 Brian Prangle, <bprangle at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Rupert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any update on your plan to fix things in Merthyr? A lot has been
>>>>>>> achieved but I don't know whether it's at your instigation or not. There
>>>>>>> are still some buildings to clean up in a few areas ( I was adding solar
>>>>>>> panels just now as part of our ongoing UK project). How's setting up the
>>>>>>> zoom meeting?  There's still some unease about this project going forward
>>>>>>> andyou need to build some bridges with the UK OSM community
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 at 10:43, Brian Prangle <bprangle at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rupert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Things are beginning to clarify thankyou.
>>>>>>>> I think you might proceed faster and stronger if you stop relying
>>>>>>>> on bodies like missing maps etc and engage the local uk osm community more
>>>>>>>> centrally.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also think you need more urgency to fix the buildings mess. More
>>>>>>>> than intentions are needed. Fixing what's there is going to be slow and
>>>>>>>> demotivating so I think it best to delete everything and start afresh. If
>>>>>>>> potential collaborators with osm look at this data they are going to run a
>>>>>>>> mile and tell everyone else likewise.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No more explanations and justifications please : plan and execute
>>>>>>>> fast - like this week
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, 09:37 Rupert Allan, <mail at rupertallan.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Brian, Andy and group,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please forgive me for an early morning address mis-type. The last
>>>>>>>>> email was addressed to both Andy and Brian.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So Brian, thanks for the suggestions in the email above. It is
>>>>>>>>> obviously paramount to get buildings mapped to the important
>>>>>>>>> standards needed for OSM here in the UK, given the strong history of
>>>>>>>>> high-standard maps in the UK. OSM standards need to match,
>>>>>>>>> better, or provide different information than those of the OS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your suggestions for for trying to ensure this. Having
>>>>>>>>> 'taken down' the tasks', the intention is to edit and correct the data, and
>>>>>>>>> if this cannot wait until local people are trainied enough to do it, I
>>>>>>>>> shall ask the Missing Maps group to undertake it with very strict rules and
>>>>>>>>> your guidances.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *The ultimate dream scenario... *is that this project would
>>>>>>>>> arrange for members of the OSM UK group to be part of/lead the remote
>>>>>>>>> mapping trainings (- in situ, lockdown permitting). This could then help
>>>>>>>>> train local mappers to the right standard. *But is this
>>>>>>>>> feasible? *If it were, then any input from MapUganda (and all of
>>>>>>>>> these involvements are currently hypothetical) could then focus on field
>>>>>>>>> survey training.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To partially answer the 'analytical map' outcomes questions noted
>>>>>>>>> from Frederik, here
>>>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1djgOB4yD-eExeSDy4Hu8XiKslG_slMiWguupGyqS4Bc/edit#gid=0>
>>>>>>>>> and here
>>>>>>>>> <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nrcNYbF7lAI3yM1zbZqYPanDaipxtI9uUa3GhYsLLs4/edit#gid=0>
>>>>>>>>> are some worksheets showing resource allocation maps generated in
>>>>>>>>> the South Sudan/DRC refugee crisis. These remain a work in progress, and
>>>>>>>>> were designed to show stakeholders what is possible, and not meant to claim
>>>>>>>>> how watertight our data/presentation is, except in the fact that local
>>>>>>>>> participants are supremely confident that every single public amenity was
>>>>>>>>> covered. Something resembling these (but curated under UK guidance),
>>>>>>>>> generated in the OpenData environment, may constitute one of the outcomes
>>>>>>>>> for South Wales. These were showcased here
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.hotosm.org/updates/2018-04-14_some_powerful_map_outputs_from_the_ugandan_refugee_response>
>>>>>>>>> (please forgive the initial 'emotive' tone of the blog - e.g. the call for
>>>>>>>>> readers to contribute. Prospective contribution enquiries would then be
>>>>>>>>> strategically managed by HOT).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Zoom call sounds great, Brian. Happy to fit in with whenever's
>>>>>>>>> best for you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I shall have a busy week ahead, with some personal commitments
>>>>>>>>> too, starting this morning, so please also forgive me if email response
>>>>>>>>> slows down a little.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rupert
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 9:02 AM Rupert Allan <mail at rupertallan.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Andy,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (and thanks, Andy, for pointing out that my resonse seemed vague.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Answers:
>>>>>>>>>> 'the precise nature of this project like  its timescale and
>>>>>>>>>> deliverables and the role of the various stakeholders?'
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Deliverables:
>>>>>>>>>> Feasibility Study.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Timeframe: Taking 3-6 weeks, tbc.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Secondary/conditional potential deliverables:
>>>>>>>>>> Attempt to provide schematic maps for broad analysis of social
>>>>>>>>>> and geographic resource allocation .
>>>>>>>>>> Provide the opportunity for local people to have a say in how
>>>>>>>>>> they are treated/own their own data.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Timeframe: tbc
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Possible Stakeholder roles (tbc):
>>>>>>>>>> Cwm Taf Morgannwg - integrate OSM GIS into existing covid
>>>>>>>>>> response. Sponsor/commission the project.
>>>>>>>>>> OSM UK -? Tbc
>>>>>>>>>> OSM Cymraeg - General support, advice, and ? Tbc
>>>>>>>>>> Local Community - Collaborate, learn, participate
>>>>>>>>>> MapUganda - field training and OSM analytics assistance/skills.
>>>>>>>>>> Tbc
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My role
>>>>>>>>>> - writing feasibility study, concept originator and potential
>>>>>>>>>> project coordinator (tbc)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 'a voluntary project or a funded project'
>>>>>>>>>> - Voluntary so far.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 'when you start talking about recruiting local mappers.'
>>>>>>>>>> - I am hoping to get the project commissioned, but initially a
>>>>>>>>>> feasibility study is requested. I would hope to be paid for that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Zoom call if it involves UK OSM Chapter sounds like  good idea
>>>>>>>>>> - Yes, it certainly does. When is a good time for you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Rupert
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> UK: +44 (0)7970 540 647
>>>>>>>>>> Skype: Reuben Molotov
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 9 Apr 2021, 23:06 Andy Townsend, <ajt1047 at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Rupert,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think you've really answered Brian's questions there.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 09/04/2021 22:38, Rupert Allan wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> > ...
>>>>>>>>>>> > I am the initiator of the project, as I was the one asked to
>>>>>>>>>>> look at
>>>>>>>>>>> > whether the humanitarian community mapping methodology used in
>>>>>>>>>>> Ebola
>>>>>>>>>>> > vulnerability mapping, for example, could be applied to assist
>>>>>>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>>> > COVID risk/response here in the UK.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Asked by whom?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Andy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Talk-GB mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rupert Allan:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Spatial Intervention Design, Research
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In Print:  'Motorcycle-Mapping: Modalities of United Statelessness' in *Mapping Crisis: Participation, Datafication and Humanitarianism in the Age of Digital Mapping* <https://www.sas.ac.uk/publications/mapping-crisis> (University of London/Chicago Press, Human Rights Consortium <https://www.sas.ac.uk/projects-and-initiatives/human-rights-consortium>)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> UK: +44 (0)7970 540 647
>>>>>>>>> Skype: Reuben Molotov
>>>>>>>>> MARINE CALL SIGN: 24VN3 <https://www.facebook.com/rupertanddorry/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FRGS, Missing Maps/HOT OSM Voting Member
>>>>>>>>> web <http://rupertallan.com> | twitter <https://twitter.com/rupert_allan> | instagram <https://www.instagram.com/rupert_allan/> | linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupert-allan-03840a4/> | imdb <https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1117305/?ref_=nv_sr_1?ref_=nv_sr_1>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Talk-GB mailing list
>>>>> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
>>>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Talk-GB mailing list
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>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Rupert Allan:
>>
>> Spatial Intervention Design, Research
>>
>> In Print:  'Motorcycle-Mapping: Modalities of United Statelessness' in *Mapping Crisis: Participation, Datafication and Humanitarianism in the Age of Digital Mapping* <https://www.sas.ac.uk/publications/mapping-crisis> (University of London/Chicago Press, Human Rights Consortium <https://www.sas.ac.uk/projects-and-initiatives/human-rights-consortium>)
>>
>> UK: +44 (0)7970 540 647
>> Skype: Reuben Molotov
>> MARINE CALL SIGN: 24VN3 <https://www.facebook.com/rupertanddorry/>
>>
>> FRGS, Missing Maps/HOT OSM Voting Member
>> web <http://rupertallan.com> | twitter <https://twitter.com/rupert_allan> | instagram <https://www.instagram.com/rupert_allan/> | linkedin <https://www.linkedin.com/in/rupert-allan-03840a4/> | imdb <https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1117305/?ref_=nv_sr_1?ref_=nv_sr_1>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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