[Talk-GB] Social clubs (working mens' clubs)

nathan case nathancase at outlook.com
Tue Nov 2 09:34:18 UTC 2021


Thanks for the responses so far.

I think the RSL is probably an Australian equivalent to a working men’s club, certainly close enough that a combined tagging scheme would perhaps be workable. Warin’s man shed example does appear to be better suited as a traditional club=*.

> 1) To what extent is there an expectation that an "amenity" is available to the general public during opening hours? Working Men's Clubs did not used to have open bars/facilities but that seems to be changing since my day.

I think there are a few examples of amenities that require membership or certainly where you can’t just walk up and expect to use the amenity (e.g., library, social_facility, studio, prison), so I’m not too worried about that.

I can see why, outside of the UK, people might suggest we use the club=social, amenity=community_centre, community_centre:for=* approach however I think this would be an extreme stretch of the term community centre! Though this is something I’ve tried to resist before for clubhouses but with no success (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/clubhouse).

Further thoughts welcome.

From: Michael Collinson <mike at ayeltd.biz>
Sent: 02 November 2021 07:08
To: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Social clubs (working mens' clubs)

Hi Nathan,

As a general statement: It is good to adjust UK-centric tagging to be harmonious with worldwide tagging but still be meaningful and useful to UK local mappers. As we started things, our tags can be a bit parochial at times. So anything to help there, thumbs up from me.

I come from an area with working men's clubs but couldn't find any consistent tagging pattern ... or indeed many examples. So personally thumbs up to your amenity=social_club changes and deprecating leisure=social_club

Possible counter cases:

1) To what extent is there an expectation that an "amenity" is available to the general public during opening hours? Working Men's Clubs did not used to have open bars/facilities but that seems to be changing since my day.

2) Do consider Australian "RSL" (Retired Servicemen League Clubs). These are numerous and fill a similar niche, particularly in rural areas; stereo-typically with a lawn bowling area, weekend end events, an open bar/eating area and make their money from pokies, (one armed bandits).  AU Guidelines suggest that they use amenity=licensed_club but I've not checked to see how well that is observed:


https://help.openstreetmap.org/questions/21141/tags-for-returned-and-services-league-rsl-clubs
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Licensed_Club


Lastly, I was "horrified" to find that Idle Working Men's Club was not mapped and have made amends now. If you want to use play around with the tagging to help thought, feel free to tweak:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/9217647304

Mike
On 2021-11-01 23:09, nathan case wrote:
Hi all,

I’ve done some restructuring of the amenity=social_club Wiki page – hopefully it’s a little clearer now: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dsocial_club

I believe this tag, in the UK, is used mostly to identify working mens’ clubs (or similar). World-wide is a bit of different story and is probably, in many cases, a mis-tagging of club=social or similar.

There is also the tag of leisure=social_club. The wiki page (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dsocial_club) is lacking detail but also defines the tag as a working mens’ club, so analogous to amenity=social_club.

I will post to the tagging mailing list but would be grateful for UK editors’:

  1.  comments on the usage of this tag, i.e., is my current understanding correct, or are there other uses?
  2.  edits/improvements to the Wiki page
  3.  thoughts on deprecating on leisure=social_club, seeing as it is analogous.

Many thanks!



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