[Talk-GB] London Overground / TfL Rail as part of National Rail

tonyosm9 at gmail.com tonyosm9 at gmail.com
Sat Nov 20 12:08:04 UTC 2021

Generally Network Rail(NR) is the operator of the track infrastructure - they maintain it and operate the signalling system, the actual train services are operated by a train operating company under a contract from an authorised government body - DfT, TfL, Merseytravel etc. One piece of track can have many service operators running scheduled services.
If the service operator is owned by DfT eg LNER then who is the operator? What level of abstraction do you expect?
To my mind the ways making up the track need to be part of two relations - an NR relation of the route describing the infra-structure characteristics, and a relation for the service operator describing the service.
Elizabeth Line/Crossrail is already a fertile place for exceptions to rules. Is it part of NR ticketing, who maintains it and operates it?
Whatever the decision of this week - there is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways which is planned to change all of this within the next 2 years.

Whatever decision is made it will change soon and both changes will affect the renderers.

I would like to see a working group created to address these issues for GB railways so that mappers and renderers can have a firm base to do their work. Ad hoc changes should be discouraged as they can cause too much discussion; better to create a new schema to address the complexity of this subject with respect to infrastructure and services. A new schema could well include branding. 
Also bear in mind that each of the 4 nations have significantly different structural arrangements which will affect a schema - including the schema presently used.


On 20/11/2021 10:57, Michael Tsang <miklcct at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 20 November 2021 09:43:02 GMT 10992 wrote:
> > Here are further thoughts:
> >
> > Network Rail ` National Rail H ATOC/RDG (at least at the moment, it might
> > all need tagging when Great British Railways or whatever they're calling it
> > comes into being).
> >
> > Merseyrail, London Overground and TfL Rail all are part of the National Rail
> > ticketing system. See e.g.
> > https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=TEO&dest=SBU.  This is distinct from
> > running on Network Rail tracks.  HS1 is not Network Rail, I don't believe,
> > and I don't think the new sections of TfLR are NetR.
> >
> > Anyway, the operator of LO is Arriva Rail London.
> >
> > Network Rail would be the operator of the tracks rather than the routes.
> >
> > Perhaps brand could fit somewhere?
> So I believe
> operator="Arriva Rail London"
> ref="LO"
> network="National Rail"
> brand="London Overground"
> can work?
> Also, it seems there isn't consistent mapping of National Rail train routes as
> well, for example, the Thameslink routes are mapped with the ref shown on the
> route map but some Southern services are mapped using the route code from the
> old BR era, some services are mapped using the 3-digit NRT number as ref as
> well, and some have just the two-letter code as the ref.
> If we apply the same tagging principle to the above, we can tag the Southern
> routes as
> operator="Govia Thameslink Railway"
> ref="SN"
> network="National Rail"
> brand="Southern"
> right?
> I believe that all National Rail routes should be mapped as network="National
> Rail" to signify that they are really one network, unlike the "lie" where TfL
> always tells us making us think that Overground / TfL Rail are different things
> to National Rail. Practically, especially in terms of ticketing and passenger
> rights purposes, Overground / TfL Rail are no different than other TOCs (you
> need a National Rail ticket, but not an Underground / DLR ticket, to travel on
> the Overground), although tube fare is charged rather than TOC fares.
> Michael
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