[Talk-GB] Shoulders

[10992]

I'm never quite sure which e-mail to reply to in a thread, but here we go:

You sometimes see a "Soft verges" sign:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/519129/know-your-traffic-signs.pdf page 12

or

https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=996775364511803 / https://www.mapillary.com/app/?pKey=996775364511803&lat=51.92754895708&lng=-0.69748637831858&z=17&focus=photo&x=0.3584103189587662&y=0.4975777164361772&zoom=2.968611153908005

How would this be tagged, and why (in my inexperience) are drivers being warned of this?

10992


Sent with ProtonMail secure email.
------- Original Message -------
On Friday, April 15th, 2022 at 12:46, Andy Townsend <ajt1047 at gmail.com> wrote:


> On 15/04/2022 10:39, Mark Goodge wrote:
> 

> > On 15/04/2022 08:16, Philip Barnes wrote:
> > 

> > > On Wed, 2022-04-13 at 19:37 +0100, Tom Crocker wrote:
> > > 

> > > > It asks:
> > > > Does this road have a shoulder?
> > > > A shoulder is a clearly demarcated emergency stopping lane that
> > > > allows vehicles to stop safely completely beside the traffic lane,
> > > > although not always (fully) on paved surface.
> > > 

> > > In UK terms I would disagree with the final part, about not always a
> > > paved surface.
> > > 

> > > An important part of the function of a hard shoulder is that vehicles
> > > can slow dow outside the running lanes and when leaving can accellerate
> > > to a safe speed to safely rejoin the live lanes. Here you will be
> > > joining the live lanes at little over walking pace.
> > 

> > Surely that's the point, though? There's a difference between a
> > shoulder and a hard shoulder. Or, to be more precise, a hard shoulder
> > is a subset of shoulder. So the question is, are we mapping all
> > shoulders, or only hard shoulders?
> > 

> > Having said that, I don't think the example you gave in your original
> > post is a shoulder, hard or otherwise. A shoulder isn't just a
> > slightly wider carriageway than is necessary for the marked lanes. A
> > verge isn't a shoulder, particularly when, as in this case, it's
> > interrupted by marker posts and separated from the carriageway by
> > drainage gravel.
> > 

> > https://goo.gl/maps/s9grKsPQm8rRPWiy7
> > 

> > In the UK, though, we generally don't have non-hard shoulders. So, for
> > the most part, I think it's fair to say that they should only be
> > mapped in the UK when fully paved, unless it's obvious that an unpaved
> > off-carriageway lane is intended for use as a shoulder.
> 

> I suspect that part of the problem here is that what people around the
> world call a "shoulder" varies, and in some cases it varies within a
> country (for example, there's been discussion among people from the USA
> about this elsewhere).
> 

> To be fair to StreetComplete, I think that their description is a good
> summary of what I'd describe as a shoulder - I'd definitely consider a
> hard gravelly section wide enough for a vehicle to the nearside of a
> road as a "shoulder". They're pretty rare in England Wales and Scotland
> (not sure about Northern Ireland, although the Republic has lots of
> them). Arguably enabling this quest on anywhere other than motorways in
> England is a bad idea as it may create a significant number of false
> positives among the true negatives**, and (as a passenger, obviously)
> StreetComplete on motorways is something of a challenge.
> 

> Thanks for mentioning verges. <climbs soapbox> As someone who fairly
> 

> regularly walks along rural roads it's really useful to know which roads
> have usable verges. They're no use to cyclists though, and I suspect
> that the small gaps between the painted edge of the carriageway on some
> "expressway-style" UK roads are. How should those be tagged? Some of
> the Americans mentioned earlier would call that a "narrow shoulder"; I
> probably wouldn't - but what is it?
> 

> Best Regards,
> 

> Andy
> 

> ** hopefully the unpleasantness of the last couple of years has got more
> people up to speed with this element of basic statistics(!)
> 

> 

> 

> _______________________________________________
> Talk-GB mailing list
> Talk-GB at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
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