[Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas

Mon Feb 7 11:10:12 UTC 2022

Hi all,

I'm looking at the discussions about paths in highlands with interest. I'm using OSM in its plain version to prep for some hikies with my family and I wouldn't like to be surprised by a non-existent track half way up or down a hill. We are always prepared and properly equipped, also we would go back if the track becomes too much.

However, I think we shouldn't be stopping people from climbing Ben Nevis in  flip-flops. I can't see why we should add five various warning tags to a path. One should be more than enough.
In the recent past we've all seen senseless people climbing guided by a gray, dashed teleport path from Google. Nothing will stop some of them, no matter what tags we will use.

I salute all the rescu teams, who risk lives to get (...) out off trouble. Unfortunately I can't see this trend changing soon. No matter how many of those paths we will tag as unsuitable or requiring boots/preparation etc, there will always be one who won't listen.

In wonder if, instead of marking individual paths we could mark areas (or have routers check elevation of a path) where calculating route would clearly say: "if you're stuck it will cost you £XXXX and will risk other people's lives". Maybe then shorts and flip-flops would be less visible in higher (300m above sea level ;)) parts of the world.

Cheerio!
dzidek23

7 Feb 2022 08:39:43 talk-gb-request at openstreetmap.org:

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Mark Goodge)
>    2. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Mark Goodge)
>    3. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Mark Goodge)
>    4. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
>       (Elizabeth Oldham)
>    5. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Phil Endecott)
>    6. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Tom Crocker)
>    7. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Tom Crocker)
>    8. Re: Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas (Mark Goodge)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 21:19:55 +0000
> From: Mark Goodge <mark at good-stuff.co.uk>
> To: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID: <16936c9b-a0d7-b7e8-5f10-46cf84e49ff5 at good-stuff.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> 
> On 06/02/2022 14:25, David Woolley wrote:
>> 
>> Also, people have compared OSM with OS maps, but I think they are
>> comparing OSM with the OS printed maps at 1:25,000 upwards.? The correct
>> comparison is with OS Master Map, which is the underlying database.? I
>> don't know if Master Map includes the features being discussed here.
> 
> It's not on Gwynedd council's planning map, which is displaying OS data
> from an ArcGIS server. It's not quite MasterMap, but it does show
> individual residential property boundaries in urban areas so it's pretty
> high resolution. It doesn't appear on the OS Outdoor map, although the
> Pyg track does. It also doesn't show on the most detailed zoom of any of
> the free layers on OS's own online maps, although, again, the Pyg track
> does.
> 
>> If Strava is displaying routes only suitable for technical climbers, as
>> though they were suitable for Sunday strollers, that weakness in Strava
>> needs to publicised.? OSM needs to protect itself by ensuring that the
>> true difficulty is encoded, and possibly consider distinguishing such
>> paths in the standard rendering.
> 
> I certainly agree that it shouldn't show as a path in the standard
> render, or, at least, not a path in the same way as, for example the Pyg
> track is shown as a path.
> 
> Having had a look at the wiki, I'd suggest that as well as adding the
> sac_scale, this one should also be tagged as trail_visibility=horrible.
> And I think that the standard render should not, normally, show anything
> with that tag (or worse).
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 21:27:32 +0000
> From: Mark Goodge <mark at good-stuff.co.uk>
> To: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID: <1ea9181f-4778-70ec-1475-a6f02ed2f14a at good-stuff.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> 
> On 06/02/2022 20:32, nathan case wrote:
>> Looking at the Strava Heatmap, there?s pretty good ?heat? for that
>> route. It?s definitely not as strong as the paths to the north and south
>> of it, but it is certainly there. This indicates that more than just the
>> occasional walker has used it (considering only a fraction of walkers
>> would upload their data to Strava).
>> 
>> https://www.strava.com/heatmap#16.00/-4.07493/53.07432/hot/all
>> <https://www.strava.com/heatmap#16.00/-4.07493/53.07432/hot/all> (you?d
>> need to log in for high resolution)
>> 
>> Now I?m not sure how Strava builds up the Heatmap, i.e. how often it is
>> refreshed/updated or how many users over what time period this level of
>> heat relates to, but it does appear this route is in use.
>> 
>> In which case, is it actually a path by virtue of use?
> 
> It's in an open access area, so people can, and some do, go anywhere. I
> don't think we should map something just because enough people have used
> this particular route for it to show on Strava. Otherwise, over time,
> almost any open access area is going to be criss-crossed with so many
> paths that it becomes almost meaningless.
> 
> What it really needs, of course, is for someone to survey it on the
> ground. I'm not volunteering, at least not right now. If we're still
> having this argument in summer then I might take a look :-)
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 21:34:23 +0000
> From: Mark Goodge <mark at good-stuff.co.uk>
> To: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID: <1d418d81-bb1f-2c55-8163-74d728d3d7e1 at good-stuff.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> 
> On 06/02/2022 20:16, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> Gruff Owen wrote:
>>> I'd very much appreciate your views on this and would be interested
>>> if similar Ways have been discussed in the past?
>> 
>> I've just discussed this with a qualified mountain leader with a lot of
>> experience of Snowdon. They say:
>> 
>> "I know this area pretty well and I don't believe it exists. The route
>> indicates it goes off on the outside of the final zigzag as you climb
>> the Pyg track. I've sat there many times waiting for groups and there
>> isn't a path off, on or near that corner.
>> 
>> "I suspect it's been picked up because the OS 1:25k map shows a grey
>> line of crags that could be mistaken for some kind of boundary, which in
>> turn lots of people mistake for a path."
> 
> It's not visible in the aerial view on Google, Esri or Bing, although
> the Pyg track very clearly is. There is something that looks like it
> might be a very faint track on Google's aerial view, but it doesn't
> follow the route that's been mapped on OSM and, I think, is just an
> artifact of the ground conditions.
> 
>> As such I don't see the value in keeping it in OSM. We have already
>> correctly recorded the legal possibility of walking it (i.e. it's within
>> an access land polygon). It isn't a path legally, historically, or on
>> the ground. The eastern end (alone) is perhaps an animal track, or a
>> line of crags, that the occasional walker has followed. There are
>> thousands of those on hillsides across Britain, and we don't map those
>> as paths either.
>> 
>> If Gruff and a local mountain leader don't believe it's a path, and it
>> doesn't have any particular legal path status, then we shouldn't keep it
>> as a path. OSM values on-the-ground survey above all else, and we have
>> two surveys here saying "not a path".
> 
> I'd be inclined to agree.
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 21:38:56 +0000
> From: Elizabeth Oldham <beth at the-hug.org>
> To: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID: <f60044b2-468c-def0-5811-be18fea133d7 at the-hug.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> 
> The path is clear over most of its length on (JOSM's) Bing aerial
> photography, less so at the western end where it joins the Pyg Track.
> 
> It doesn't look like a goat or sheep trod, it looks like a desire line
> or ordinary mountain path. Backed up with heat traces on Strava. I'd
> certainly map it - it's what's on the ground.
> 
> sac_scale tag seems appropriate information for renderers to decide if
> they want to draw it or not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2022 22:31:41 +0000
> From: "Phil Endecott" <spam_from_osmgb at chezphil.org>
> To: <talk-gb at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID: <1644186701770 at dmwebmail.dmwebmail.chezphil.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format="flowed"; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> I've just discussed this with a qualified mountain leader with
>> a lot of experience of Snowdon. They say:
>> 
>> "I know this area pretty well and I don't believe it exists. The
>> route indicates it goes off on the outside of the final zigzag as
>> you climb the Pyg track. I've sat there many times waiting for
>> groups and there isn't a path off, on or near that corner.
> 
> Looking at Google Earth, the Eastern end of the path is clearly
> visible and well defined. There are two forks from the main Crib
> Goch - Crib y Ddysgl path a few metres apart which join up to form
> this new path. Amazingly, these forks are actually visible on
> Google Street View! I imagine that people think it's an avoiding
> path for the rocky section of the main ridge ahead.
> 
> But half way along the terrain becomes looser and the path
> disappears from the Google Earth imagery.
> 
> Google Street View also has images of the zigzag at the Pyg Track
> end, and on the 2021 images a good hint of the track is visible.
> The web version shows 2015 images which are less clear.
> 
> 
> Regards, Phil.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2022 22:44:09 +0000
> From: Tom Crocker <tomcrockermail at gmail.com>
> To: Elizabeth Oldham <beth at the-hug.org>
> Cc: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID:
>   <CAHmUbmdd0px2r4bok_2y2Wy5u3SGj86+vK5QMPozCYkdLMtdBg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 at 21:41, Elizabeth Oldham <beth at the-hug.org> wrote:
> 
>> The path is clear over most of its length on (JOSM's) Bing aerial
>> photography, less so at the western end where it joins the Pyg Track.
>> 
>> It doesn't look like a goat or sheep trod, it looks like a desire line
>> or ordinary mountain path. Backed up with heat traces on Strava. I'd
>> certainly map it - it's what's on the ground.
>> 
>> sac_scale tag seems appropriate information for renderers to decide if
>> they want to draw it or not.
>> 
> 
> For what it's worth, the Eastern end (the clearly visible end) is a
> 'segment' in Strava: https://www.strava.com/segments/2813199
>> From memory of using Strava years ago these are created by users as GPS
> traces and independent of OSM data so whatever happens with the OSM way,
> that will show up, if not with an underlying path. It also says 562 people
> have attempted this part with the fastest male effort being 3:42 and the
> fastest female time 5:16.
> 
> I'm aware the Strava/mapbox rendering doesn't show the cliffs, but I would
> think it helpful for those using other renderers to add any cliffs there
> may be along (it looks like there may be one about 3/4 along) and if the
> path up to Garnedd Ugain isn't a climb up cliffs but picks its way between
> gaps it would be helpful to show those gaps in the cliffs. Of interest, the
> 1:10,560 map shows a slightly different route to the north of the ridge
> which appears visible on Bing but I've no idea if this is currently walked.
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 08:27:36 +0000
> From: Tom Crocker <tomcrockermail at gmail.com>
> Cc: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID:
>   <CAHmUbmcB7qAbJA4Ecap=B5Kw6-N4OUAFiAVKHUwunwKBQFG+3g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> I was reminded of SK53's recent diary entry and comments below the line,
> which are interesting
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SK53/diary/397592
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2022 08:35:50 +0000
> From: Mark Goodge <mark at good-stuff.co.uk>
> To: talk-gb at openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Advice please: Goat tracks in mountain areas
> Message-ID: <fd7e0fe0-187f-dbe3-3d72-189598b260eb at good-stuff.co.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> 
> 
> On 06/02/2022 21:38, Elizabeth Oldham wrote:
>> The path is clear over most of its length on (JOSM's) Bing aerial
>> photography, less so at the western end where it joins the Pyg Track.
>> 
>> It doesn't look like a goat or sheep trod, it looks like a desire line
>> or ordinary mountain path. Backed up with heat traces on Strava. I'd
>> certainly map it - it's what's on the ground.
> 
> Do we map desire lines?
> 
> Mark
> 
> 
> 
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