[Talk-GB] Rossendale Way

[Andy Townsend]

On 24/01/2022 17:05, Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>
> On 24/01/2022 15:13, Andy Townsend wrote:
>> On 24/01/2022 12:05, Martin Wynne wrote:
>
>>> And what about folks who don't use such sites, but just use the 
>>> OpenStreeetMap? I keep telling friends how useful it is for walking, 
>>> with details such as stiles, benches and bus stops which are not 
>>> shown on OS maps.
>>>
>> Presumably "the OpenStreetMap" here is the "standard" tiles 
>> maintained at https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto ?  
>> If so, please don't send people there if you want them to see hiking 
>> route information because that style has decided not to show that 
>> information.
>
> openstreetmap.org is where Google, Bing, DuckDuckGo etc will send 
> people when they search for "open streetmap". Expecting non-nerds to 
> use other URLs isn't realistic.

People will need to suggest "use this site" or "use this app".  I 
regularly see people in forums frequented by both OSMers and non-OSMers 
suggesting map apps and map styles that aren't from openstreetmap.org.

I don't think that it's reasonable to think that anything vaguely 
related to OpenStreetMap should be linked from the front page of 
osm.org, and that all map styles should be hosted in the layer switcher 
there.


>
>> A good option is https://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/ (which has lots 
>> of walker-friendly functions, download GPX file, etc.). Another 
>> option that shows "walker friendly" stuff like public footpath info 
>> and route relations is https://map.atownsend.org.uk (which I look 
>> after).  I'm sure there are others.
>
> Ideally, openstreetmap.org would have a "Walking map" layer which 
> shows things like rights of way and other relevant data. That it does 
> not is, at the moment, a significant weakness.

Agreed on the "walking map" idea, but I don't think that an 
England-and-Wales map style would make sense to be added globally 
because things like "public footpaths" don't even apply to Scotland, 
never mind the rest of the world.


>
> As a user of OpenStreetmap, I use openstreetmap.org because the tiles 
> render faster there, I only need to have one URL bookmarked (or set as 
> an icon on my phone) and it has useful search and navigation features. 
> As a street map (that is, primarily a road map), the bog-standard OSM 
> is, genuinely, better than anything else that's freely available on 
> the web - it's much better than Google maps, for example. But the one 
> thing it doesn't do at all well is display crucial walking information 
> such as rights of way. For that, I use OS, because OS is the only 
> source that has it.

As an aside I can think at least three other sites that have reasonable 
rights-of-way coverage - Bing Maps showing OS Landranger and Explorer 
data, map.atownsend.org.uk (which as up to date as OSM is) and the 
overlay https://osm.cycle.travel/rights_of_way/ which shows what is 
available from local authorities as OGL and works over any e.g. Leaflet map.


>
> Unfortunately, walking doesn't seem to be important to the people who 
> look after openstreetmap.org. As well as the standard layer, it has 
> two different cycling map layers, a transport map that appears to be 
> mostly public transport, a layer called "ÖPNVKarte" which also appears 
> to be mostly about public transport, and a layer named "Humanitarian" 
> which seems, at first glance, to be basically just the standard map 
> with a different style. So you've got two functions (public transport 
> and cycling) duplicated, nothing for walkers, and no real explanation 
> of what the different layers are.
>
> From a usability perspective, that's pretty awful, and that is, in my 
> experience of recommending OSM to non-geeky users, one of the biggest 
> obstacles to wider adoption. It's a particular obstacle to people who 
> walk in the open countryside, where right of way information is 
> absolutely fundamental and needs to be visible on screen without 
> needing to query individual features to view otherwise hidden tag values.

I suspect that "the people who look after openstreetmap.org" are people 
very much like you.  Although the admins been quite clear that they 
don't see osm.org as a replacement for the all-in-one sites like Google 
that use maps as part of the "offer" to separate people from their 
personal data, I'm sure they'd love a "walking map" style, and have 
tried to help a bit by creating a new tile layer policy 
https://operations.osmfoundation.org/policies/new-tile-layers/ that at 
least makes it clear what is required.  They'd probably also love to 
offer region-specific layers, but don't have the infrastructure to do 
that right now.  If someone was to offer to add support for that to 
osm.org, I'm sure that they would be interested (though questions about 
maintainability of any new code would I'm sure be asked too).

In the absence of support for regional layers at osm.org I suspect that 
any "England and Wales rights of way map" isn't going to be available as 
a global map style there, but that doesn't mean that it can't be 
available somewhere else, and people can't advertise its existence in 
other internet forums.

In terms of functionality, what do you believe is required, and would 
you be willing to help create it?

The financial running cost per month of any such site isn't a huge 
amount*, and nor is server maintenance time** - it's people taking the 
time to define what _they_ think is needed and then implement it 
themselves that is missing.

Best Regards

Andy


* as an example, map.atownsend.org.uk costs me < £20 per month, so if 
you split the monthly running cost between a few people it's less than 
the price of a beer at a monthly OSM meetup.

** mostly just occasional monitoring and upgrading the server OS (or 
moving the server) every couple of years.

If you want to borrow from the setup of map.atownsend.org.uk you can; 
it's all public.  See the links from 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:SomeoneElse/Ubuntu_2110_tileserver_load 
for the setup and https://map.atownsend.org.uk/maps/map/about.html for 
more info.