[OSM-talk-ie] Talk-ie Digest, Vol 66, Issue 17

Conor McDonagh conor_mcdonagh at yahoo.com
Fri Nov 14 20:57:46 UTC 2014


But someone can't describe roughly where they live using an Eircode. It descibe exactly where they live. 

There is a need to be able to describe unambiguously but not precisely where you live so you need a different kind of coding scheme. I'm wondering what is the best scheme for this

Perhaps the topic of local-area level codes is less relavent to OSM as it describes abstract definitions of area? I don't know. But I wondered if the OSM community found it relavent, useful or something to consider working with. What if everyone was using one kind of postcode in apps and websites, would it be good to make it work well with OSM tools? Maybe that is the job of apps built on top of OSM.



   

  On Friday, 14 November 2014, 18:54:03, "talk-ie-request at openstreetmap.org" <talk-ie-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:
   

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Today's Topics:

  1. Re: openpostcode - any interest? (Richard Cantwell)
  2. Re: Talk-ie Digest, Vol 66, Issue 15 (Brian Prangle)
  3. Re: openpostcode - any interest? (Langer Dan)
  4. Re: openpostcode - any interest? (Colm Moore)
  5. Re: openpostcode - any interest? (Dave Corley)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 16:14:43 +0000
From: Richard Cantwell <manaboutcouch at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of Open Streetmap in Ireland
    <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
Message-ID: <C9A1101F-2268-405B-8D6B-E1C4C33BAE1D at gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;    charset=us-ascii

/Delurk
Did someone mention postcodes? ;-)

(Include standard disclaimer)

Re: the privacy issue, I think it comes down to the mess that is Ireland's addressing system, in part at least. At present an address alone isn't enough to uniquely identify about 600,000 (mostly rural) addresses, a personal name is also needed. In many cases even that isn't enough as there may be numerous houses in a townland where people have the same surname and initials. Eircode will resolve this.

As for adding the postcode as a tag in OSM, this was mentioned briefly at the GIS Ireland conference debate on postcodes. The view from the organisation implementing the postcodes (nothing to do with me, honest!) was that while the database of codes will be covered by copyright the codes themselves won't be, so at least we know that adding them won't cause copyright issues for OSM down the line.

/Relurk

(I'm mad busy, will return properly to OSM activities after Xmas)

Richard
-=-
Sent from my phone

> On 14 Nov 2014, at 14:50, Dave Corley <davecorley at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Regarding possible privacy issues, I've yet to find someone to explain to
> me how a buildings eircode is any different from a buildings address.
> 
> As for adding postcodes to addresses at all, as sad as it is to say, only
> Eircode will end up being widely used and as it will be the officially
> recognised postcode in use in the country, it is the only one which should
> be added under the tag addr:postcode. I do not discriminate against other
> code providers when I say this either. People are free to use what they
> want, but in terms of being the officially recognized code, there will only
> be one.
> 
> There will still be the option to use, for example, addr:postcode:loc8,
> addr:postcode:openpostcode etc for others if people still want to add
> those.
> 
> Given that there are over 250,000 buildings already in the OSM dataset for
> Ireland there is room to have a discussion regarding adding those
> alternatives under the suggested tags above. Given OSM tagging freedom, its
> one of the few locations where all codes could co-exist
> 
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-ie mailing list
> Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 16:39:32 +0000
From: Brian Prangle <bprangle at gmail.com>
To: talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Talk-ie Digest, Vol 66, Issue 15
Message-ID:
    <CAECtZzBk1K7yCWyX9MtsyM9F85X8hN_cJBPxE4QG6721KQXdrg at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Thanks for all the help on islands and townlands. I'm now clear on what
happens: I've come across my first islands with clearly marked townlands (
Lough Ree just north of Athlone) - all others I'll leave until I get to
Baronies, Civils Parishes and EDs

Castlepollard sheet thanks for that too - my next job

Rgds

Brian

On 14 November 2014 12:00, <talk-ie-request at openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> Send Talk-ie mailing list submissions to
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>
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Townlands map scan request (Donal Diamond)
>    2. Re: Townlands Islands in lakes (Dave Corley)
>    3. Re: openpostcode - any interest? (Conor McDonagh)
>    4. Re: openpostcode - any interest? (Rory McCann)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 16:15:42 +0000
> From: Donal Diamond <donal.diamond at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of Open Streetmap in Ireland
>        <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands map scan request
> Message-ID:
>        <CAB4yhm4oLSqoR-71h_=hSSmpeX=
> zxKSBMzehUpjo5TyGaj3NiQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Good news.  brianh was able to get the missing
> IRL-GSGS-3906-23-27-SE-Castlepollard.tif sheet.
>
> brianh has done a lot of liaising with TCD map library and is the one
> responsible for us being able to procure all sheets from TCD.
>
>
> http://mapwarper.net/maps?field=title&query=IRL-GSGS-3906-23-27&show_warped=0
>
> D
>
>
> On 12 November 2014 17:17, Donal Diamond <donal.diamond at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 12 November 2014 11:18, Brian Prangle <bprangle at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Could I have:
> >>
> >> 20/25 SE NE and SW
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> http://mapwarper.net/maps?field=title&query=IRL-GSGS-3906-20-25&show_warped=0
> >
> >
> >> 23/27 NE and SE
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> http://mapwarper.net/maps?field=title&query=IRL-GSGS-3906-23-27&show_warped=0
> >
> > Hmm - I cant seem to find IRL-GSGS-3906-23-27-SE
> >
> > I'll see if I have it elsewhere
> >
> > D
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2014 19:05:39 +0000
> From: Dave Corley <davecorley at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of Open Streetmap in Ireland
>        <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Townlands Islands in lakes
> Message-ID:
>        <
> CAHwD_AFU8FTYfNHY6PmYeqG2PA7UHkxR1+LN6PmXr_X3tST-ig at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Hi Brian,
>
> The sheets should give some indication as to whether or not an island
> belongs to a townland. For smaller islands, its highly like that they do
> not belong to any townland at all.
>
> The link below shows some islands in Lough Corrib in Galway where the
> larger islands are townlands and also shows smaller islands which are not
> contained within a townland relation at all.
>
>
> http://dev3.openstreetmap.ie/osm/slippymap.html?zoom=13&lat=53.3838&lon=-9.08475&layers=B00TTTTT
>
> Note however, that everything, water included, falls into the the Civil
> Parish, Barony and Electorl Division relations
>
> Dave
>
> On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 8:39 AM, Rory McCann <rory at technomancy.org> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > For the record, townlands.ie isn't able to distinguish between islands
> > like this and land that isn't covered by a townland. So you might
> > never get to 100% coverage. This is currently the case with Longford
> > http://www.townlands.ie/longford/debug/ .
> >
> > I'm not sure what to do about it. So long as you know that the
> > townlands.ie rate & missing bits is a bit off, it should be fine for
> now.
> >
> > Rory
> >
> > On 12/11/14 15:14, Patrick Matthews wrote:
> > > Islands in lakes or offshore don't usually form part of townlands
> > > unless the lake itself is divided between townlands. Either they
> > > form townlands in their own right if they're big enough or they get
> > > ignored (they are part of electoral divisions, civil parishes and
> > > baronies, though).
> > >
> > > On Wed, Nov 12, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Brian Prangle
> > > <bprangle at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi
> > >>
> > >> In Westmeath we have lots of lakes with islands. How do you
> > >> assign islands to townlands? It's not obvious from the maps.
> > >>
> > >> Rgds
> > >>
> > >> Brian _______________________________________________ Talk-ie
> > >> mailing list Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
> > >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________ Talk-ie mailing
> > > list Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
> > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
> > >
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 09:54:02 +0000 (UTC)
> From: Conor McDonagh <conor_mcdonagh at yahoo.com>
> To: "talk-ie at openstreetmap.org" <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
> Message-ID:
>        <
> 244502074.460629.1415958842613.JavaMail.yahoo at jws100108.mail.ne1.yahoo.com
> >
>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> It's very official; the Eircode system is designed to be unintelligible
> apart from the first part giving the sorting-office area. It has been
> finalised and is to role out in 2015. It's most likely defined to meet the
> needs of An Post, Revenue and similar authorities.
>
> An advantage of a more intelligible, geographic coding is that you can
> easily identify and recall the code for an area. You can specify a location
> to a desired degree of accuracy, e.g. 10km, 1km, 100m, 10m.
>
> The particular advantages of the openpostcode system as I see it are: that
> it has no proprietary aspect; the resolution depends on the length of code,
> from 1 to 8 chars (93, 19, 3.7km, 750, 160, 30, 6, 1.2m); the codes are
> reasonably short; it describes a geographic box so any location can be
> given.
> The key thing to my mind is that your average person should be able to
> remember and use a code with ease to find places. Remembering a GPS point
> isn't easy. I can just about remember that Dublin is around 53N 6W and I
> couldn't put a GPS box around my local area.According to openpostcode, I
> live in an area generally around KFM2, KFM3, KFM7and KFM8. Dublin is pretty
> much within KF, KG, KL and KM. There is a syntax for defining ranges, so I
> live in KFM2::KFM8 and Dublin is in KF::M.
> Another useful outcome is that geographical analysis can be applied where
> people are regularly using codes. For e.g. if sales ads specify a small
> area for a person's location, then the data can be usefully analysed to
> give statistical maps.
>
>      On Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 12:35:42, Conor McDonagh <
> conor_mcdonagh at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>  Any interest in the openpostcode system? Have any OSM people looked at it
> with view to integrating or using it?
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 11:21:08 +0100
> From: Rory McCann <rory at technomancy.org>
> To: Conor McDonagh <conor_mcdonagh at yahoo.com>,  Discussion of Open
>        Streetmap in Ireland <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
> Message-ID: <5465D794.8010704 at technomancy.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
>
> Yes the Eircode system has flaws and will be closed. But that's the
> system we have to deal with. The UK Postcode system was closed for
> years as well. Alas "postcode" in Ireland will mean "Eircode". When
> Eircode is launched, we can start adding it to OSM in the
> addr:postcode tags. Maybe we'll do some sort of "free the postcode"
> for eircode.
>
> As for integrating with OSM, since openpostcode is an algorithm based
> on lat/lons, I don't think there is any way to "integrate" them (or is
> there?). OSM provides the lat/lons, do whatever with them.
>
> Please don't add openpostcode codes to OSM as "addr:postcode", that's
> inaccurate until people start using openpostcode.
>
> The openpostcode map uses Google maps though :P
>
> *Designing* a postcode is hard. openpostcode has flaws as well.
> Sometimes 2 houses of a semi-d will have radically different codes,
> meaning you can't use "ranges" at all (e.g. KFLRL2LN and JKQXQ6QF ). A
> take away nearby cannot say "We deliver to postcodes starting with KF".
>
> Rory
>
> On 14/11/14 10:54, Conor McDonagh wrote:
> > It's very official; the Eircode system is designed to be
> > unintelligible apart from the first part giving the sorting-office
> > area. It has been finalised and is to role out in 2015. It's most
> > likely defined to meet the needs of An Post, Revenue and similar
> > authorities.
> >
> > An advantage of a more intelligible, geographic coding is that you
> > can easily identify and recall the code for an area. You can
> > specify a location to a desired degree of accuracy, e.g. 10km, 1km,
> > 100m, 10m.
> >
> > The particular advantages of the openpostcode system as I see it
> > are: that it has no proprietary aspect; the resolution depends on
> > the length of code, from 1 to 8 chars (93, 19, 3.7km, 750, 160, 30,
> > 6, 1.2m); the codes are reasonably short; it describes a geographic
> > box so any location can be given. The key thing to my mind is that
> > your average person should be able to remember and use a code with
> > ease to find places. Remembering a GPS point isn't easy. I can just
> > about remember that Dublin is around 53N 6W and I couldn't put a
> > GPS box around my local area.According to openpostcode, I live in
> > an area generally around KFM2, KFM3, KFM7and KFM8. Dublin is pretty
> > much within KF, KG, KL and KM. There is a syntax for defining
> > ranges, so I live in KFM2::KFM8 and Dublin is in KF::M. Another
> > useful outcome is that geographical analysis can be applied where
> > people are regularly using codes. For e.g. if sales ads specify a
> > small area for a person's location, then the data can be usefully
> > analysed to give statistical maps.
> >
> > On Wednesday, 12 November 2014, 12:35:42, Conor McDonagh
> > <conor_mcdonagh at yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Any interest in the openpostcode system? Have any OSM people
> > looked at it with view to integrating or using it?
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ Talk-ie mailing
> > list Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
> >
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>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-ie mailing list
> Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> End of Talk-ie Digest, Vol 66, Issue 15
> ***************************************
>


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 16:42:45 +0000
From: Langer Dan <ldan at cutehoor.com>
To: Discussion of Open Streetmap in Ireland
    <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>,  Conor McDonagh
    <conor_mcdonagh at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
Message-ID: <54663105.5050302 at cutehoor.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

No need for an exposition on the desirability of open data here, and not 
sure how you thought I had an issue with any of your examples.

This is specific to eircode in tags, and there are limits to what we 
tag. We don't do occupier=langer_dan or house_alarm=no on building 
outlines even if we know that information, because it's a tag too far.
So there's a spectrum from definitely tag, to definitely not tag, and 
there's a legitimate argument to be had on where eircode lies along that 
spectrum.

If a friend gives me his eircode to send him a letter, does that give me 
the right to tag his house with the code?
To me at least, this is not exactly the same argument as publicly 
visible data, or information in the public domain, or GPS traces I've 
taken myself.
Eircode and the occupier will be the only sources of the data.


Rory McCann wrote on 14/11/14 14:43:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Ten years ago, someone could have asked "Is having a free map of the
> world desirable?" Ten years ago, someone could have asked if it was
> legal, don't OSi have copyright on all maps? Ten years ago someone
> could have asked if there was privacy concerns with mapping your
> neighbour's address. Ten years ago, someone could have asked if it
> would have been possible to do it, considering how big the world is.
> Ten years ago, someone could have pointed out how roads and POIs have
> no proximity information, knowing the roads in one side of the town
> doesn't tell you what the roads on the other side of the town are called.
>
> And now we have OpenStreetMap.
>
> Feel free to make a map with OpenStreetMap data showing openpostcode
> co-ords, if you'd like.
>
> Rory
>
> On 14/11/14 15:26, Langer Dan wrote:
>> Rory McCann wrote on 14/11/14 10:21:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Yes the Eircode system has flaws and will be closed. But that's
>>> the system we have to deal with. The UK Postcode system was
>>> closed for years as well. Alas "postcode" in Ireland will mean
>>> "Eircode". When Eircode is launched, we can start adding it to
>>> OSM in the addr:postcode tags. Maybe we'll do some sort of "free
>>> the postcode" for eircode.
>> Given the closed design of Eircode, there's likely to be a couple
>> of reasons why this could be problematic: - Copyright - Privacy
>>
>> Leaving it to others to determine if we could do a
>> free-the-postcode style loading of personal postcodes into OSM, but
>> looking at http://www.eircode.ie/legal would suggest it's not a
>> simple decision, and looks specifically designed to discourage
>> *any* unlicensed (and paid for) use.
>>
>> Even if copyright is not an issue, and we can do a
>> free-the-postcode, the eircode design raises questions about
>> whether it's a good idea, especially if companies, websites and
>> shops start asking for eircodes.
>>
>> Is compiling a list of unique household identifiers and making it
>> available under more liberal terms desirable? If I know my
>> neighbour's eircode, is putting it into OSM OK, or should I ask
>> their permission?
>>
>> Also, partial coverage is not nearly so useful as other postcodes
>> since eircodes are secret random codes with no proximity
>> information.
>>
>> One reason to support openpostcode in OSM would be to have a simple
>> open code-to-XY that works for Ireland, since our official postcode
>> system will not be providing it, but I'd guess that's more map UI
>> issue, to display the code alongside lat/lon for Ireland.
>>
>> ld
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ Talk-ie mailing
>> list Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
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------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 17:45:03 +0000
From: Colm Moore <colmmoore72 at hotmail.com>
To: "talk-ie at openstreetmap.org" <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
Message-ID: <DUB126-W11FF0EA56DEDC6E233C957BD8C0 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


 

> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 14:50:59 +0000
> From: Dave Corley <davecorley at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
> Regarding possible privacy issues, I've yet to find someone to explain to me how a buildings eircode is any different from a buildings address.

At the moment, practically ever house in a rural Irish townland will have the same address - Joe Bloggs, townland, postal town, county. A third of all households have such addresses. There is a potential privacy issue, insofar as the eircode is a proxy number for a household (for as long as they live there).

For others, the privacy issue is that they will actually have to pay their taxes and traffic fines. I've no objection to the system making people obey the law. :)

Colm

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
                         

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Fri, 14 Nov 2014 18:53:37 +0000
From: Dave Corley <davecorley at gmail.com>
To: Discussion of Open Streetmap in Ireland
    <talk-ie at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] openpostcode - any interest?
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    <CAHwD_AGu0CaENvzxyFQNb-PEpkBwO1f4Vn=NMJ_0KQM=7NKz=A at mail.gmail.com>
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Folks,

I think people are confusing what is meant by privacy in the context of
addressing and Eircodes.

The same as an address, a postcode only relates to the building/abode, not
the occupiers of the building i.e. if you move, the address stays with the
building as does the postcode. There are only privacy implications when you
include personal details of the occupier. To be clear, once you have the
details of a living person and can link those details with other things
(address, health, education, location etc etc), then you are impacting
their privacy and only then. To talk in terms of privacy in any other
context shuts down the open data movement trying to open up govt data and
would also have enormous ramifications for the likes of wikipedia,
openstreetmap etc.

To give an example, if I have a name "Gay Byrne"

and an address No. 123, High Street, Fairview, Dublin 3, D3X 1234

and I add Gay Byrne, No. 123, High Street, Fairview, Dublin 3, D3X 1234 to
OSM I impact that persons privacy.

If I add No. 123, High Street, Fairview, Dublin 3, D3X 1234 to OSM, I do
not.

I could even add No. 123, High Street, Fairview, Dublin 3, D3X 1234,
building=house, building_levels=2, roof_style=pitched, roof_colour=black,
and so on, there would still be zero impact to the privacy of the
individual who owns or occupies that building as I have not linked their
personal information.

Remember that OpenStreetMap is only interested in data that relates to
place. It is not interested in *who* is in that place, only the attributes
of *what* occupies that space. If postcodes/addresses ran the risk of
breaching someones personal privacy I would be one of the first to shout
about it, but they don't.

Dave


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