[OSM-talk-ie] Bar v pub

[Alan Grant]

Hi Phil,

That raises the question of how we would tag the many Irish or English
style pubs in Spain and other non English speaking countries. Other than a
few places with large expat populations, I think these tend to aim at
tourists and at locals who go there on specific occasions but not as part
of their regular routine. So by your definition Morrissey's Irish Pub and
the Camden Town Pub in Malaga, despite their painstaking attempts to
reproduce the appearance and atmosphere of authentic pubs, would be tagged
as bar rather than pub. Not necessarily wrong, but counterintuitive and I
think unlikely to be followed by the average local mapper.

More generally your suggestion illustrates the problem that drawing a
distinction between a bar and a pub requires the mapper to choose which
factor defines the difference. You choose regulars v customers, the wiki
author emphasized loud music and lack of seating space, other people
emphasize other factors. The user of the map then has to guess which of
these interpretations was in the mind of the mapper.

What I like about Rory's suggestion is that it avoids this guessing - if
the mapper feels that music is an important feature of a given
establishment they can indicate that directly rather than trying to imply
it by using bar instead of pub.

On 23 Jun 2017 11:30 am, "Philip Barnes" <phil at trigpoint.me.uk> wrote:

>
>
> On 23 June 2017 10:18:03 BST, Rory McCann <rory at technomancy.org> wrote:
> >Another idea: Rather that hashing out what's a pub and what's a bar,
> >why
> >not use additional tags to narrow it down? There are suggestions for
> >real_ale=yes/no, food=yes/no, microbrewrey=yes/no various ways to say
> >"they sell this type of draught beer", real_fire=yes/no.
> >
> >If I see something tagged amenity=bar, real_fire=yes, food=no,
> >drink:beer:Guinness=draught drink:cider:Bulmers=draught tv=no
> >cocktails=no, then I know exactly what sort of place to expect!
>
> Rory, I would tend to go with the customers v regulars approach. A pub is
> a part of a community and attracts loyalty.
>
> I'm not sure loud music can be used as a comparison, my local certainly
> has loud music on I open mic night or when there is a singer on.
>
> Phil, (trigpoint)
> >
> >On 23/06/17 09:55, Alan Grant wrote:
> >> Thanks all for the replies. I am inclined to agree with Rory, there
> >seems
> >> to be little point in worrying too much about establishments that do
> >not
> >> fall clearly into one or the other category. Either way the user of
> >the map
> >> will know that they are places that serve alcohol; beyond that there
> >is a
> >> wide range of individual characteristics (loud music or not? loud
> >music at
> >> certain time of the week? live or recorded music? proper food served
> >from a
> >> kitchen? emphasis on beer or wine or cocktails? open after midnight?
> >> children allowed? dress code?) that can never be fully captured by a
> >binary
> >> bar/pub split.
> >>
> >> On 22 June 2017 at 17:22, Rory McCann <rory at technomancy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>> For the differentiating rule is based on the osm-carto style choice.
> >Is
> >>> the normal drink there a pint? Then it's a pub. Is it a cocktail?
> >Then it's
> >>> a bar.
> >>>
> >>> Though it's not too important. In Hiberno-English the terms are used
> >>> interchangibly. Perhaps in the UK with their brewery pubs and free
> >houses
> >>> it's different. The vast majority of the instances in Ireland are
> >pubs, not
> >>> bars (we love our pints).
> >>>
> >>> I don't think there's a clear, defined difference between bar & pub.
> >There
> >>> are edge cases in Ireland (and I think UK). So maybe tell the
> >Spanish
> >>> community that.
> >>>
> >>> Like many things in OSM, there are many right answers. :) We'll
> >never get
> >>> anything 100%.
> >>>
> >>> Rory
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 22/06/17 14:50, Alan Grant wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Let me start by introducing myself as I have not posted on talk-ie
> >before.
> >>>> I am Irish but live abroad and generally follow the Spanish
> >(talk-es)
> >>>> mailing list.
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a rather intense debate taking place at the moment on
> >talk-es (31
> >>>> posts and still going) about whether a typical Spanish
> >neighbourhood bar
> >>>> should be tagged as amenity=bar, pub, or cafe. Some participants
> >seem to
> >>>> assume that the bar-pub distinction is clearly defined in English
> >(and
> >>>> specifically in the English OSM wiki) and that the issue is how to
> >map
> >>>> that
> >>>> distinction to Spain.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am posting here because I wondered about whether Irish mappers do
> >in
> >>>> fact
> >>>> think this distinction is well-defined and useful. It seems to me
> >that in
> >>>> Ireland at least we often use "pub" and "bar" almost
> >interchangeably -
> >>>> hence pub names such as "The Harbour Bar". Looking at the wiki some
> >of the
> >>>> criteria seem rather vague or of doubtful relevance - should it
> >matter to
> >>>> the definition of an amenity if the building that houses it happens
> >to be
> >>>> modern or purpose-built? What about the suggestion that food is
> >normally
> >>>> available in pubs - I seem to remember that when I was young many
> >pubs
> >>>> served little more in the way of food than packets of crisps, does
> >that
> >>>> mean they were then bars but have become pubs as they diversified
> >into
> >>>> serving food to the lunchtime crowd?
> >>>>
> >>>>   From taginfo the pub tag vastly outnumbers the bar tag in
> >Ireland.
> >>>> Looking
> >>>> at places tagged as bar, many of them do not seem much different to
> >their
> >>>> neighbours tagged as pubs as far as I can see.
> >>>>
> >>>> I suppose I am really asking out of curiosity rather than with any
> >>>> definite
> >>>> aim, but any thoughts would be welcome.
> >>>>
> >>>> Alan
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Talk-ie mailing list
> >>>> Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
> >>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >
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