[OSM-talk-ie] Raths / ringforts

[Donal Hunt]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort

In Irish language <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language> sources
they are known by a number of names: *ráth* (anglicised *rath*), *lios*
 (anglicised *lis*; cognate with Cornish
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornish_language> *lis*),[2]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort#cite_note-Helsbury-2> *caiseal*
 (anglicised *cashel*), *cathair* (anglicised *caher* or *cahir*; cognate
with Welsh <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language> *caer*, Cornish
and Breton <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breton_language> *ker*) and *dún*
 (anglicised *dun* or *doon*; cognate with Welsh and Cornish *din*).[3]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort#cite_note-Edwards-3> The *ráth* and
*lios* was an earthen ringfort; the *ráth* being the enclosing bank and the
*lios* being the open space within.[4]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort#cite_note-Irish_countryside-4> The
*caiseal* and *cathair* was a stone ringfort.[3]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort#cite_note-Edwards-3> The term *dún* was
usually used for any stronghold of importance, which may or may not be
ring-shaped.[3] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort#cite_note-Edwards-3>

In Ireland, over 40,000 sites have been identified as ringforts and it is
thought that at least 50,000 ringforts existed on the island.[5]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort#cite_note-New_History,_550-5> They
are common throughout the country, with a mean density of just over one
ringfort within any area of 2 km2 (0.8 sq mi). It is likely that many have
been destroyed by farming and urbanisation. However, many hitherto unknown
ringforts have been found thanks to early Ordnance Survey
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordnance_Survey> maps, aerial photography
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_photography>, and the archaeological
work that has accompanied road-building.

Based on the above definitions, nodes should tagged with ring_fort but
detailed mapping could use ráth and lios. I assume a relation tagged with
ringfort would be appropriate for locations that have the ráth and lios
mapped.


Thoughts?


Donal


p.s. I have no other knowledge / opinion other that want I've read above. I
do think they are cool and worth mapping. 50,000 is a lot of work!!!

On Wed, 5 Sep 2018 at 17:37, moltonel 3x Combo <moltonel at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 05/09/2018, Colm Moore <colmmoore72 at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >
> >
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:fortification%20type=ringfort?uselang=en-GB
> >
> >
> > Was someone running a project on mapping / tidying-up raths / ringforts?
> I
> > notice many are mapped in Cork and Kilkenny, but few elsewhere.
>
> User b-unicycling has added most of the Kilkenny ringforts (from some
> external source, I can't recall exactly but I had checked with her
> that it was ODBL-compatible) and I then fixed the tagging and reviewed
> a few using Bing and GSGS.
>
> See https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/52885942
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55717926
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/55718276
>
> > I haven't come across many of these until the last few weeks. In that
> time,
> > I seem to have been tagging them incorrectly.
> >
> > Can I check the correct tagging is:
> > historic=archaeological_site
> > site_type=fortification
> > fortification_type=ringfort ?
>
> Yes, that's what I've been going for after looking at taginfo and the
> wiki, but see discussion below.
>
> > I checked http://stat.latlon.org/ie/latest/ for the word "fort", (I
> didn't
> > check for name~fort or description~fort) and there are many tagging
> > variations (not all of these will be ringforts).
> >
> > archaeological_site=earthworks
> > archaeological_site=fort
> > archaeological_site=ring_fort
> > archaeological_site=ringfort
> > castle_type=fortification
> > castle_type=fortress
> > earthworks=rath
> > earthworks=ringfort
> > earthworks=ringfort (rath)
> > fortification=ring_ditch
> > fortification_type=hill_fort
> > fortification_type=hillfort
> > fortification_type=ringfort
> > historic=fort
> > historic=fortification
> > historic=hillfort
> > historic=ring fort
> > historic=ring_fort
> > inscription=Ring fort
> > military=fort
> > note=Ancient fort
> > note=Ancient ring fort
> > note=Fawney (fainne) means ring, maybe the site of a ringfort? Was also
> > slang to kiss the King/Lords ring. Very interesting as the road is called
> > the Royal Oak
> > note=Fort
> > note=Not sure if these are Barrows or rath, or what the difference is!
> Ring
> > fort
> > note=Not sure if these are Barrows or raths, or what the difference is!
> Ring
> > fort
> > note=Ring Fort?
> > note=Round Fort?
> > note=ring fort
> > note=ringfort
> > ruins=fort
> > ruins=ringfort
> > site_type=earthwork
> > site_type=earthworks
> > site_type=enclosure
> > site_type=fortification
> > site_type=ring fort
> > site_type=ringfort
> > site_type=ringfort;megalith
> > type=ringfort
> > wikipedia=en:Ringfort
> > wikipedia_1=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringfort
>
> I last looked at the taginfo numbers about a year ago, let's look again :
>
> There seem to be a split between
>
> historic=archaeological_site,site_type=fortification,fortification_type=ringfort
> (~850 uses, Cork and Kilkenny) and historic=earthworks,earthworks=rath
> (~1750 uses, Kerry). While the later is more popular, I prefer the
> former for these reasons:
>
> * The former seems to fit the OSM worldwide consensus better, and is
> documented in the wiki.
> * Everybody knows what a fortification is, but earthwork isn't as
> clear (sounds like clay pottery to me).
> * Most Irish people know what a ringfort is, but a rath... I've only
> encountered the word in OSM.
> * Maybe earthworks/rath is a better word from an archaeologist's POV.
> Maybe a ringfort is subtly different from a rath. But I don't know and
> I expect the average OSM contributor doesn't either, so it seems safer
> to stick with layman-level "ringfort".
>
> > How should I proceed?
>
> Rorym seems to be behind most of the earthwork=rath objects, so let's
> get his opinion first (I'll ping him).
>
> From then on, if we agree on the "ringfort" scheme, I'd say use
> https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/BFD to locate the "earthworks" objects,
> then load them into josm to check and retag.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-ie mailing list
> Talk-ie at openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ie
>