[Talk-in] Classifying places - cities, towns and villages

I Chengappa imchengappa at gmail.com
Tue May 8 22:36:57 BST 2012


I don't really understand this reasoning, except that it seems to state the
idea that cities in India have to be really big and important to be called
cities. In practice of course the term 'city' is used as it is everywhere
else, to refer to a certain sized settlement, somewhat inconsistently.
There is no real difference in this regard between Europe and any other
region; if people settle in houses and settlements which they do, then
these can and should be mapped in a set manner. If you need to travel to a
very large identifiable settlement you expect to see it labelled a city.

Even in China, the lowest population of a designated city is 300,000
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_in_India
>

You may mean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List of
cities_in_China<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_in_India>. Cities
in China are not designated anything except in Chinese, which is
then translated into English. This illustrates one problem, the English
term 'city' is used to translate a Chinese designation for an
administrative area that can include an urban settlement and lots of
surrounding rural areas and even other cities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chongqing is a 'city' with a population of
28million, of whom only 6 or 7 million live in the urban area in a total
area of 80000+ sq. km.. In other words it would be called a province,
state, region, district or county in most other countries. Nevertheless
someone who wants to go to Chongqing usually wants to go to the actual
city, not to the admin region. If they want other cities in this
'Chongqing' region, they need to see a city tag there. This is strangely
enough is what the OSM has there - look in the OSM and there is not only a
city called Chongqing in 'Chongqing', there are also other places labelled
cities in 'Chongqing'. Which is what you would expect in a region with a
population of 28million. This makes the map useful.

A city is usually this highest centers of economic importance in a country
> and is region specific.It  cannot be classified just by population or size.
> In that case, Thimphu with 80,000 people will not classify as a city. While
> Tinsukia or Mandya will, which are nothing more than large towns of
> regional importance. These are not places that must show up on a 'city map
> of the world'
>

A  city is a large town; it may everything you have said in the first
sentence but first it it is a large town. Mandya was a pretty large place
last time I went through it, as expected by its population. Since you have
been quoting Wikipedia, I'll point out that it is called a city there as
well as on its municipal website.


> The proportion of Cities:Towns:Villages must be maintained in proportion.
> The census classification  maintains that relationship and will maintain
> consistency with other datasets following this scheme like Compensatory
> City Allowance
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Indian_cities
>
> Hubli-Dharwad is a special case where the urban centres are far apart that
> it makes sense to have two city nodes, otherwise I see no reason not to
> adopt the census document as is for this purpose.
>

Census classifications should be indicated if necessary by creating
census-specific tags, of the type that already exist for many places. The
proportion of cities towns and villages is what actually occurs, and hence
what should be mapped. Cities towns and villages are the common terms and
it will not be useful to use the term village to refer to a panchayat area
that includes multiple villages; a panchayat should be mapped as an admin
area.  It is up to us to record physical realities in standard terminology
to make a useful map; it is not sensible to change standard terms to fit a
classification created for purposes other than mapping. When Cloudmade
produce their maps, it should not show differently mapped information for
one country because some contributors chose to follow a government
designation over standard recommendations.

indigomc


On 6 May 2012 13:28, Arun Ganesh <arun.planemad at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I raised the question (with the wrong person, sorry) over the inclusion of
>> a Hubli-Dharward place node in countryside between the two urban areas, and
>> the downgrading of these two to 'towns'. In terms of Hubli-Dharwad; both
>> Hubli and Dharwad are 'cities' by the OSM definition
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3D<http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dtown>city
>>
>>
>>  I think it is necessary that the OSM should map primarily on its own
>> account. It already has its own recommendations, which are based on
>> population of settlements (i.e. any individual populated area that is
>> actually identified on the ground). See
>>
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dtown and related;
>>
>> towns are settlements with populations between 10000 and 100000, cities
>> above this, villages et.c. below this. This designation is roughly in
>> accordance with general usage of these terms.
>>
>
> While such definitions may be a good yardstick in places like Europe,
> (which is where btw such definitions arose for OSM), its not practical to
> classify Indian or Chinese places with the same measure.
>
> Even in China, the lowest population of a designated city is 300,000
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cities_in_India
>
> A city is usually this highest centers of economic importance in a country
> and is region specific.It  cannot be classified just by population or size.
> In that case, Thimphu with 80,000 people will not classify as a city. While
> Tinsukia or Mandya will, which are nothing more than large towns of
> regional importance. These are not places that must show up on a 'city map
> of the world'
>
>>  Government designations should be shown drawing administrative areas
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative ;
>> currently there are state and district boundaries, taluk and metropolitan
>> boundaries should be added later. Applying terms defined in the ODP
>> differently from general practice there will mean that the general world
>> wide renderings of the maps may show up oddly. As and when these admin
>> boundaries are added to the database then of course specific renderers
>> could show these as desired, and depending on need, these could be given
>> priority over the point nodes.
>>
>>  For a place like Pimpri-Chinchwad in which (as far as I know) there is
>> no longer any clear distinction between the two places, then of course
>> there should be one place node. For Hubli-Dharward however where the two
>> cities have their own distinct geographic identity, this should be
>> reflected on what we map.
>>
>
> Comparison with other countries; the US has lots of 'cities', which
>> include quite small settlements. Those with populations under 100k are
>> shown in OSM as towns. London, UK is shown as a city in the OSM even though
>> it does not have a formal designation as such because it is one
>> recognisable entity. However it contains multiple city sized subdivisions
>> including three administrative 'Cities' within it, which are shown by their
>> admin boundaries. All this matters because of the use of general rendering
>> engines; applying distinct practices for one country can result in
>> anomalies when only the general rendering is used.
>>
>> 400 cities is not a large number for  the size of India. Look at the
>> Netherlands for one example of the density of cities.
>>
>
> The proportion of Cities:Towns:Villages must be maintained in proportion.
> The census classification  maintains that relationship and will maintain
> consistency with other datasets following this scheme like Compensatory
> City Allowance
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Indian_cities
>
> Hubli-Dharwad is a special case where the urban centres are far apart that
> it makes sense to have two city nodes, otherwise I see no reason not to
> adopt the census document as is for this purpose.
>
>
>
>
>> indigomc
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> j.mp/ArunGanesh <http://j.mp/ArunGanesh>
>
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