[Talk-ko] Fixing laguage-mixed name tag in Korean region

Sat Mar 4 12:16:29 UTC 2017

The ideas here are good, but I have a problem with the idea that the Korean
names "should" be translated.

I have come across numerous examples where a street name COULD be
translated, for example something like "대학로" could be translated to
"University street"; however, the English on the actual street sign is not
translated and says "Daehak-ro".
In a situation like this, shouldn't the name:en tag still exist and be
"Daehak-ro"? In this case, the name:ko_rm=romanized would be the same, but
certainly not in all cases.

There is at least one service I know of that uses the name:en tag to create
maps using OSM data. And, I expect future renderers will need to access
specific language tags when things get to the point where you can choose a
language and have the map rendered on the fly in your language.

If you just start translating all street names and POI names, then anyone
using an English rendered map to find places in Korea is going to have a
pretty hard time unless they speak Korean. Sure, it will obviously take
time to get the actual signage into OSM, but I think that route is better
than just translating things and entering a lot of unrepresentative data.

Robert

*"We should give meaning to life, not wait for life to give us meaning. "*
~ unknown
---

On Sat, Mar 4, 2017 at 8:45 PM, 느림보 <nrimbo at gmail.com> wrote:

> It might be useful for foreigners to have combination name as 한국어
> (English). However, as a local mapper I don’t want see (English) because
> they don’t give additional information to Korean people, as well as they
> block displaying of other POIs by taking additional space. To make matters
> worse, English name is longer than original Korean name, generally.
>
>
>
> Andrew said that “…as an English speaker living in Korea it is very useful
> for me…”. So, I looked after several online services and OsmAnd to see how
> they looks. In most cases, they are using local name (name tag) only.
> MapQuest prefer English than local name and OsmAnd has function override
> language, but they don’t give two languages, too.
>
>
>
> I also found two sites displaying two languages (Max already introduced
> one of them.) They display Korean name and ‘foreign name’ line-by-line. For
> me, it is more readable than wrapping English name by parenthesis and looks
> like more proper way handling name tags.
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10&lat=49.
> 99303&lon=18.83157&layers=B000TT
>
> http://maps.sputnik.ru/?lat=37.536410466671626&lng=127.
> 00847625732423&zoom=12
>
>
>
>> name=한국어 and name:ko=한국어 are kind of redudnant, but it is probably
>> neccessary to help transitioning. Also it is the same way in Japan.
>>
>
> Agree, I hesitated making duplicated data at the first time but I accepted
> this rule for that reason. It looks like that it is accepted globally. More
> than half of 20 busiest airports have duplicated name tags.
>
>
>
>> ko_rm should actually be renamed in bulk to ko-Latn, possibly in
>> cooperation and discussion with the japanese community who have the same
>> problem with ja_rm that should be ja-Latn
>>
>> See here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Names#Localization
>> the next paragraph in this wiki page is interesting too. We should avoid
>> transliterations. According to this rule 90% of the name:ko_rm and name:en
>> tags should go.
>>
>
> I think Romanized name is useful when the name doesn’t have meaning part.
> If a name doesn’t have meaning part, then there will be no proper
> translated name, too. In this case, only ko-Latn tag (or ko_rm) holds
> foreigner friendly characters properly. In this reason, I don’t hesitate to
> add ko-Latn to administrative units. However, I think Romanization should
> be avoided if a name has meaning part. (I already expressed my opinion in
> previous thread, but again…)
>
> 1)     Romanization of Korean is not simple transliteration. It is
> difficult to guarantee correctness of Romanized name. First principle of
> Romanization is “Romanization is based on standard Korean pronunciation.”
> Finding proper pronunciation of Korean words is difficult job even native
> Koreans. As well as, “Proper names such as personal names and those of
> companies may continue to be written as they have been previously.” Only
> owner of the property can give proper Romanized name.
> See http://www.korean.go.kr/front_eng/roman/roman_01.do
>
> 2)     Even it is my personal experiment, translated name is readable
> than Romanized name. I think it is better to encourage translate rather
> than Romanize.
>
> 2017-03-04 18:09 GMT+09:00 Max <abonnements at revolwear.com>:
>
>> On 2017년 03월 04일 09:39, Andrew Errington wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that name tagging should be fixed, but I don't agree that we
>>> have a solution yet.
>>>
>> Indeed
>>
>> Firstly, name=* might not be in Korean language.  I can give several
>>> examples where the name of something in Korea (for example, a shop, or a
>>> restaurant) is in Chinese, English, or French.  So, I think we should
>>> not insist that name=* must always be Korean.
>>>
>> Very good point.
>>
>> However, it is useful to make a record of the Korean name in name:ko=*
>>> even if it is the same as name=*.  The reason for this is so that we can
>>> make a multilingual map.
>>>
>> Agreed
>>
>> I agree that if name=* is a combination of "Korean (English)" it should
>>> be changed, but as an English speaker living in Korea it is very useful
>>> for me, so I am reluctant to make that change.  And if it's useful for
>>> me, it is probably useful for other people.
>>>
>> While I generally sympathize, I think this is a bit of an colonialzing
>> view onto Korea. Hell would break loose if someone would think it's
>> appropriate to tag every item in the states with Korean or Arabic
>> transcriptions.
>>
>> This brings me to another important point, we must think of the people
>>> who will be using the data.  We must provide data which is properly
>>> tagged so that the map renderer can choose the correct tag to label
>>> every road or street or building for the language chosen by the user.  I
>>> think the reason why name=* was a combination of "Korean (English)" was
>>> because we didn't have renderers that could render in different
>>> languages.  Maybe we still don't, but we should be thinking of the
>>> future, as well as the present.
>>>
>> That's very true. I hope these multilingual renderers will appear soon,
>> so we have one less reason to slow down the transition.
>> Maybe an intermediate solution would be to have a Korean render style?
>> openstreetmap.kr ? just like the german style at
>> https://www.openstreetmap.de/karte.html
>>
>> I think we have to have a full discussion before you run your automated
>>> script.  We should also remember that there is no urgency, and we should
>>> not be hasty.
>>>
>>
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