[Talk-nz] Place names

Mark Begbie mark at begbie.org
Wed Nov 10 09:50:28 UTC 2021


However, the dispute wiki page also says:

"In the case where there are multiple local names, then if the government with effective and sustained control of the area has an official source of names or an official stance on a naming dispute, then that name is default. For instance, Derry-Londonderry."

The page seems to progress through escalations, with the above being an escalation resolution to the sort of situation we have here. The example of Derry-Londonderry is within Northern Ireland (which is NOT a disputed territory, but a part of the UK). Rather, the dispute is between different local communities in the town.

This would lend me to see this wiki page as siding with the gazetted name for the name tag.

Also, as someone else has brought up, different records change at different rates. A government can rapidly change the gazetted name, but signage (being physical infrastructure) takes time to catch up.

From an entirely different perspective, if a place name is Māori, such as Whakatāne, then the spelling should logically follow the form in the language of origin.

I do not know if the gazette typically includes macrons or not, but it seems to me this is the appropriate source of "truth".

Looking forward to a consensus we can all work within.

Mark

On 10 November 2021 4:15:03 pm NZDT, Andrew Douglas-Clifford <adouglasclifford at gmail.com> wrote:
>The wording of the wiki doesn't make it an absolute that the sign posted
>feature is the default/preferred source of primary names:
>
>*Here are the usual sources of primary names:*
>
>   - *The most prominent name on a sign posted on the feature itself,
>   especially for a feature in the built environment*
>   - *The name of the feature on a sign elsewhere, such as a fingerpost*
>   - *Common or official usage, especially for a feature in the natural
>   environment*
>
>
>It also states that where this disagreement, it favours 'on the ground' -
>but this appears to refer to disputed territories (New Zealand is not a
>disputed territory - in this sense the New Zealand Government and the
>official gazetteer of place names are the 'side' in control).
>
>Unless the signposted name differs greatly (this is probably the exception
>than the rule), I don't feel it is pragmatic to exclude macrons on that
>basis - they will not be likely to confuse people/tourists in the real
>world, with or without macrons - therefore it should show the name
>correctly with macrons. It is also not an insignificant thing - this
>obviously affects many maps that render OSM names in their basemaps for
>places. I agree with Eliot's points on that basis - the NZ community can
>decide how this is interpreted, and what is right for our local situation.
>
>Cheers,
>Andrew
>
>
>On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 4:02 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>> The first point in https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:name literally
>> does say "sign posted". I think the wiki is quite clear about this.
>> We can choose to not follow the wiki (rule), we'll just need to be clear
>> for people contributing to OSM in NZ that we have a different rule we
>> follow.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 3:44 PM Eliot Blennerhassett <
>> eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On 10/11/21 14:35, Mike Kittridge wrote:
>>> > well...now that I'm actually looking at the wiki page in more
>>> detail...it really does seem to emphasize that the "name" tag should be
>>> what's "on the ground".
>>> > I take back what I said before...reluctantly...because I would have
>>> preferred it be the official name according to the gazetteer, but there is
>>> an "official_name" tag that can be used for that purpose.
>>>
>>> Note that "on the ground" means "whatever name, designation, etc are used
>>> by the people on the ground at that location".
>>> It doesn't mean "what is written on a signpost"
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule
>>>
>>>
>>> Having said that, nitpicking over the meanings of words in the guidelines
>>> won't resolve this.
>>> The NZ community can still decide that the names with macrons per the
>>> gazetteer are the ones to go in "name".
>>> I am still in favour of this.
>>>
>>> I read the OTG rule as being more about avoiding confusion, and editwars
>>> in disputed territories.
>>> It is not as if the name with a macron is going to create confusion in
>>> people using the map to find a place.
>>> "I'm looking for the turnoff to Ōkarito, but that sign says Okarito so
>>> I'd better keep driving"?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As Andy Townsend said "a community decision is a far better option than
>>> us just choosing to enforce one option or another.
>>>
>>> I have little time for the no-macron side given that they have zero
>>> history of contributing *anything* to the
>>> NZ map apart from deleting macrons from names, and then citing "the
>>> rules" as a reason why it is justified.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Eliot
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Talk-nz at openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-nz
>>

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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