[Talk-nz] Place names

Sat Nov 20 05:04:06 UTC 2021

Hey Mike,

I would say it’s now expected to use the macron where appropriate even when using NZ English. 

I don’t know when this guide from the NZ Ministry of Health came out but it does explicitly call out to use the macron. https://www.moh.govt.nz/notebook/nbbooks.nsf/0/ECF89E6A8245B2664C2565D7000DFD28/$file/Maori%20language.pdf

And the Māori Language Commission strongly recommends its use. These guidelines would be used by the MoE when developing its own guidelines for school curriculums. 

https://www.tetaurawhiri.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/Corporate-docs/Orthographic-conventions/58e52e80e9/Guidelines-for-Maori-Language-Orthography.pdf

And the MoE has a website for bilingual Te Reo and English stuff. https://www.tki.org.nz/About-this-site/About-Te-Kete-Ipurangi It uses macrons where appropriate.

So while many signs will currently be missing macrons. The generational move is well underway to include them. If we must note the difference then I’d note the non-macron version as an extra tag. Instead of the other way round.

Here’s an article from 2018 that mentions councils moving to introduce/reintroduce macrons into words that should have them. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/maori-language-week/106500621/use-of-tohut-macrons-a-sign-of-respect

Universities even have pages that detail how to enable easier input for macrons. https://www.waikato.ac.nz/ict-self-help/guides/maori-macrons

Kind regards,

James.

From: Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com> 
Sent: Saturday, 20 November 2021 17:20
To: Eliot Blennerhassett <eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz>
Cc: talk-nz <talk-nz at openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [Talk-nz] Place names

I've enjoyed some of these discussions. It's gotten me to think more about OSM and the categorization of certain types of information.

It's just too bad we can have these discussions in person. I think it would have been quite fun ;)

But to your points, that's an interesting example to use for the english language argument. How often have you seen cafe spelled with an accent in NZ? I don't recall ever seeing this. On the contrary, the vast majority of the cases are spelled without the accent. This is the same for the many many french words that english has adopted over the last millennia. Crepe comes to mind (because I'm hungry). I kinda understand the general argument you're trying to make, but this falls into the similar category of arguments that also relate to the OSM "on the ground" issue. People are trying to find the rare exceptions to the more obvious general rule and using these as broad justifications for changes. I'm not a big fan of this type of argument as it allows you to justify pretty much anything you want, especially when it comes to language (English is one of the worst) which can have many exceptions to the general rules (that's the scientist in me).

I've already addressed the english speaking media argument, so I won't repeat myself.

If no one has found official NZ english guidelines, how about another semi-objective source for NZ? 

How is english taught in primary school here in NZ? Do they include the macrons as part of the english curriculum?

I am neither from NZ nor do I have any kids, so I'm not a good source of this information.

But I'm sure someone in this email list has either been through the school system themselves or have children going through it.

This should hopefully clear this up (at least in NZ).

Take care,

Mike

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 2:20 PM Eliot Blennerhassett <eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz <mailto:eliot at blennerhassett.gen.nz> > wrote:

On 20/11/21 11:05, Michael Stark wrote:
> Does anyone else want to share their opinion?

 From the Oxford english dictionary - note the acute accent on the é :
café, n.
A coffee-house, a restaurant; strictly a French term, but in the late 19th cent. introduced into the English-speaking countries for the name of a class of restaurant.

Example of a "strictly French" word that has been introduced to English, and kept its diacritical mark.

I think the same idea applies to the NZ places that have a single, gazetted name with a macron.
The macrons aid in pronouncing the name in English or Māori.

> On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 11:46 PM Mike Kittridge <mgkittridge at gmail.com <mailto:mgkittridge at gmail.com>  <mailto:mgkittridge at gmail.com <mailto:mgkittridge at gmail.com> >> wrote:
> 
>     Just because a word is used in English-language media doesn't mean that it's English.
>     The example Kyle used (when saying it made no sense) was name=Taupō + name:en=Taupo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Taupō is the Te Reo word for the English name Taupo. This is the case for all kinds of latin and germanic languages. For example Québec and Quebec. Québec is the French name and Quebec is the english name. Again, just because in speech and media we may sometimes mix languages doesn't mean that all of it becomes english.
>     It's tricky in NZ because the the written Te Reo language was derived from English, so it becomes quite tempting to consider one as the other.
> 
>     With that said, if you've got an official NZ english language link that states that macrons are part of the NZ english written language, then I agree that macrons should be included. That really should be the decision maker ;)

Major media (stuff, tvnz, nz herald, rnz, odt) in NZ seems to be using the names with macrons. Search for e.g. Whangārei.
I don't think there can be an "official" stance on what words are or are not part of NZ english.

--
Eliot

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