[talk-ph] Various

maning sambale emmanuel.sambale at gmail.com
Wed Nov 26 06:27:33 GMT 2008 

Does this sound sensible?  Both in its usability in editing and
machine readibility?

place=village  (or what happens to suit that place) and
place:ph=barangay


On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I checked the "legal" definition of a "city" in the UK and it is not based
> on population size. So I'm convinced that "place=city" meaning a settlement
> with 100,000+ residents is not a UK-centric thing.
>
> However, I don't think this matches how Philippine cities and municipalities
> are tagged in OSM. If it's a legal city, it gets "place=city" and
> "place=town" if a municipality. Legally, a city needs to have a population
> of at least 150,000 (based on the 1991 Local Government Code) so I'm
> confident that all cities in the Philippines correctly get the "place=city"
> tag. However, there are many municipalities that have more than 100,000
> residents. For example, Dasmarinas, Cavite has a population of 500,000+.
>
> Here's a possible solution: can the place tag get more than 1 value
> separated by commas? So maybe we can tag Dasmarinas with
> "place=city,ph-municipality". We could have Philippine-specific values:
> "ph-city", "ph-municipality", and "ph-barangay" and retain "city", "town",
> and "village" for international compatibility.
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM, <soeren.rabenstein at email.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Ok I also checked the discussion over there @nabble.com.
>> There is a valid point in the concern that the map becomes unmanagable as
>> a world map if things become tooo localized.
>> I mean in fact, if now the Swedes tag their roads as "väg=x" (saying that
>> the Swedish road claissificationn system was totally different from the GB
>> one), then tomorrow the Germans come and say "we dont have motorways here,
>> we only have Autobahn" .... and so on and so on. At the end of the day you
>> need a dedicated renderer for each country and language. (And hell, we have
>> 193 countries and thousands of languages on this planet.)
>> On the other hand it is also a valid point not to loose localized
>> information due to a "too British" classification of everything.
>>
>> So my solution - in fact for the global issue in the big picture - would
>> be to introduce something like a "nat_place=x" or "loc_place=x" tag, which
>> may be used for a local definition IN ADDITION to the global "place=x" tag,
>> which remains in the (rather British) numerus clausus we have.
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> Cheers
>>  Soren
>>
>>
>>
>> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> > Von: "Ian Haylock" <haylocki at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > Gesendet: 25.11.08 00:43:35
>> > An: Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com>
>> > CC: talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
>> > Betreff: Re: [talk-ph] Various
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > But barangays are not exactly villages, which is unlike Philippine
>> > municipalities that are acknowledged equivalent to towns.
>> >
>> >
>> > The Place= tag is used to denote the population size of a place, not
>> > whether a place is actually a city, town, village etc.
>> >
>> >
>> > So someone listing all the world's "villages" would get inaccurate
>> > data. Besides, I personally find very little use for a list of all
>> > the world's villages for whatever analysis that list would be needed
>> > for, unlike say, a list of all cities.
>> >
>> > That was a "Hypothetical" example.
>> >
>> > A non Hypothetical example (though not country specific) would be the
>> > change from highway=gate to barrier=gate. Previously navigation S/W
>> > only had to search for highway=gate to find roads to ignore. Now it
>> > has to search for both, twice as much work for the same result.
>> >
>> > (Hmmm, maybe the "place=x" tags should also be accompanied with the "
>> > admin_level=n" tags especially if the place matches the admin_level?
>> > Seems like a good idea, don't you think?)
>> >
>> > Now that gets a +1 from me :-)
>> >
>> >
>> >  On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Ian Haylock <haylocki at yahoo.co.uk>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >  Sorry,
>> >
>> > -1 from me.
>> >
>> > I think using country specific tags like "barangay" will cause
>> > problems with people who use the data.
>> >
>> > As a hypothetical example, suppose someone wanted to list all the
>> > villages in the osm database. If all the different countries used a
>> > different name for village, such a simple task would become a pain in
>> > the A**.
>> >
>> > Cheers, Ian
>> >
>> > --- On  *Mon, 24/11/08, *maning * sambale *<emmanuel.sambale at gmail.
>> > com> wrote:
>> >  From: maning sambale <emmanuel.sambale at gmail.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Various
>> > To: "Eugene Alvin Villar" <seav80 at gmail.com>
>> >  Cc: talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
>> > Date: Monday, 24 November, 2008, 8:58 AM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > +1 for me. That would be fairly easy for me to
>> >  change the
>> > place=village to place=barangay. But only for the ones I added. If
>> > others would allow me to do so for them, I'll do it.
>> >
>> > What about the others? Any opinion on this?
>> >
>> > cheers,
>> > maning
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/24/08, Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > Ok then. I'm all for tagging barangay center nodes with
>> > place=barangay. We
>> > > can just ask the renderers to place a special code to render
>> >
>> > place=barangay
>> > > same as place=village.
>> > >
>> > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:29 PM, maning sambale
>> > > <emmanuel.sambale at gmail.com>wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >> Hi,
>> > >>
>> > >> I am sending a discussion we (me and IanHaylock) had before with
>> > Mike
>> > >> Collinson (no talk-ph at that time) on tagging Barangays this in
>> > the
>> > >> context of when we are planning to import the GNS data.
>> >
>> > >>
>> > >> For your comments
>> > >> =======
>> > >> Thanks for all the
>> >  input. Here is a modified version of the script
>> > >> with PPL mapping to village not town. As is, it also reads the
>> > entire
>> > >> rp.txt file but only outputs DCG=ADM2 POIs. The resulting file,
>> > also
>> > >> attached is exactly the same as the one you sent me but has an
>> >
>> > >> addition 'is_in:state=' tag. I am very keen to get lots of
>> > 'is_in'
>> > >> tags into the OSM database as it will make future searching much
>> > >> easier. For example, if there is a critical mass of entries for
>> >
>> > >> Aurora Province spread across the province, it will be possible to
>> > >> work out the approximate bounds of the province and limit searches
>> > >> there. That removes the need to have exact boundary data.
>> >
>> > >>
>> > >> Do upload it if you think it is ready.
>> > >>
>> > >> On the issue of PPL = village or barangay or locality, these are my
>> > >> thoughts.
>> > >>
>> > >> I suggest
>> >  we definitely do not use 'locality', that is really
>> > meant
>> > >> for place names that do not coincide with any (current) population
>> > >> centre.
>> > >>
>> > >> place=village
>> > >>
>> >
>> > >> Plus: Works worldwide. Minus: Not strictly valid in a Philippine
>> > context.
>> > >>
>> > >> place=barangay
>> > >>
>> > >> We'd need to get the OSMarender and Mapnik guys to add a render
>> >
>> > rule
>> > >> for this. We could also ask for it to be added as a Map Features
>> > >> value, but that is not strictly necessary. I'd guess the easiest
>> > >> request would be to say, "please render this exactly the same as
>> >
>> > >> place=village"?
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> If I was explaining what Barangay means, does this sound right? :-
>> > >>
>> > >> place=barangay is specifically for Philippine use, though may be
>> >
>> > >> applicable in other parts of the world like South America. At
>> >  an
>> > >> administrative level, a Province (= a state) is divided into
>> > >> muncipalities. Each municipality is controlled by a local council
>> > and
>> > >> has a mayor. A municipality is split into barangays[1], headed by
>> >
>> > >> Barangay captains. In rural areas, these equate to villages. In
>> > urban
>> > >> areas, these equate to suburbs often highly distinguishable on the
>> > >> basis of social class. A rural muncipality, e.g. Donsol[2], may
>> >
>> > >> therefore have a town, Donsol, split into 3 or 4 barangays and
>> > then to
>> > >> It is important to mark them on OSM maps because they are used
>> > >> extensively in every day navigation, information, politics etc.
>> > They
>> >
>> > >> almost invariable equate to an obvious population centre (unlike
>> > >> European wards). Street signs often show which barangay they are
>> > in.
>> > >> Jeepneys and buses often show a barangays as
>> >  destinations.
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barangay
>> > >> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donsol
>> >
>> > >> ==============
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On 11/22/08, Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > >> > Hi Zoren,
>> > >> >
>> >
>> > >> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:12 PM, <sorabsuperstar at web.de>
>> > wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> > There's no discussion yet regarding barangays. I
>> >
>> > prefer leaving out
>> > >> >> > the "Barangay" part of the name (unless
>> > it's numeric like "Barangay
>> > >> >> > 30").
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> I was just about to send a second mail about that, as I
>> >
>> > realized that
>> > >> >> at
>> > >> >> certain zoom levels you can hardly see the map anymore
>> > because of all
>> > >> the
>> > >> >> Brgy. names, or hardly see certain Brgy
>> >  names because of the
>> > other Brgy
>> > >> >> names ;).
>> > >> >> I guess the Brgy concept is a special Pinoy one. This is why
>> > the
>> > >> renderes
>> > >> >> are not designed for such a high density of area names
>> >
>> > (especially with
>> > >> >> regard to font sizes) . To ease this problem I highly
>> > endorse Seav's
>> > >> >> suggestion to omit redundant words "Barangay",
>> > "Brgy."(anyway for being
>> >
>> > >> an
>> > >> >> abbreviation), "Village",
>> > "Subdivision"etc...; unless it is really part
>> > >> of
>> > >> >> the name as in "Barangay 30".
>> > >> >> We should even make this a general national convention for
>> >
>> > OSM
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Regarding this, do not be too conscious of the rendering
>> > problems. Try
>> > >> not
>> > >> > to "fix" the data just so it would render pretty. The
>> >
>> > important thing
>> >  is
>> > >> to
>> > >> > do the data right and just leave the renderers (Mapnik,
>> > Osmarender,
>> > >> > etc.)
>> > >> to
>> > >> > decide how to best present the data.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Eugene / seav
>> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > --
>> > >> > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> --
>> > >> |---------|--------------------------------------------------------
>> > --|
>> >
>> > >> | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great."
>> > -Yoda |
>> > >> | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea
>> > of all" -N.Branden|
>> > >> | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/
>> >
>> >  |
>> > >> | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ |
>> > >> | _)_/L I http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ |
>> >
>> > >> |---------|--------------------------------------------------------
>> > --|
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> >  --
>> > > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > |---------|----------------------------------------------------------|
>> > | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda
>> >
>> > |
>> > | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of
>> > all" -N.Branden|
>> > | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ |
>> >
>> > | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ |
>> > | _)_/L I http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ |
>> > |---------|----------------------------------------------------------|
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > talk-ph mailing list
>> > talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
>> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> >  talk-ph mailing list
>> > talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
>> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com
>> >
>> >  _______________________________________________ talk-ph mailing list
>> > talk-ph at openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/
>> >
>> > talk-ph
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> talk-ph mailing list
> talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ph
>
>



-- 
|---------|----------------------------------------------------------|
| __.-._  |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda     |
| '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden|
|  /'.-c  |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/     |
|  |  /T  |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ |
| _)_/L I http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/ |
|---------|----------------------------------------------------------|

More information about the talk-ph mailing list