[talk-ph] Various

[sorabsuperstar at web.de]

> Does this sound sensible?  Both in its usability in editing and
> machine readibility?

It does, except for that I really suggest to make this a global concept, i.e. not a tag like something-"PH" but trying to push through to the top of the OSM project to globally introduce a localization tag for places. And regarding the syntax I suggest "nat_place" or "loc_place", since we already have a similar syntax in "nat_name" and "loc_name" (<- those are for localization as well and they are active already)

Cheers
Soren

> 
> place=village  (or what happens to suit that place) and
> place:ph=barangay
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 10:31 PM, Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I checked the "legal" definition of a "city" in the UK and it is not based
> > on population size. So I'm convinced that "place=city" meaning a settlement
> > with 100,000+ residents is not a UK-centric thing.
> >
> > However, I don't think this matches how Philippine cities and municipalities
> > are tagged in OSM. If it's a legal city, it gets "place=city" and
> > "place=town" if a municipality. Legally, a city needs to have a population
> > of at least 150,000 (based on the 1991 Local Government Code) so I'm
> > confident that all cities in the Philippines correctly get the "place=city"
> > tag. However, there are many municipalities that have more than 100,000
> > residents. For example, Dasmarinas, Cavite has a population of 500,000+.
> >
> > Here's a possible solution: can the place tag get more than 1 value
> > separated by commas? So maybe we can tag Dasmarinas with
> > "place=city,ph-municipality". We could have Philippine-specific values:
> > "ph-city", "ph-municipality", and "ph-barangay" and retain "city", "town",
> > and "village" for international compatibility.
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 4:15 PM, <soeren.rabenstein at email.de> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Guys,
> >>
> >> Ok I also checked the discussion over there @nabble.com.
> >> There is a valid point in the concern that the map becomes unmanagable as
> >> a world map if things become tooo localized.
> >> I mean in fact, if now the Swedes tag their roads as "väg=x" (saying that
> >> the Swedish road claissificationn system was totally different from the GB
> >> one), then tomorrow the Germans come and say "we dont have motorways here,
> >> we only have Autobahn" .... and so on and so on. At the end of the day you
> >> need a dedicated renderer for each country and language. (And hell, we have
> >> 193 countries and thousands of languages on this planet.)
> >> On the other hand it is also a valid point not to loose localized
> >> information due to a "too British" classification of everything.
> >>
> >> So my solution - in fact for the global issue in the big picture - would
> >> be to introduce something like a "nat_place=x" or "loc_place=x" tag, which
> >> may be used for a local definition IN ADDITION to the global "place=x" tag,
> >> which remains in the (rather British) numerus clausus we have.
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>  Soren
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> > Von: "Ian Haylock" <haylocki at yahoo.co.uk>
> >> > Gesendet: 25.11.08 00:43:35
> >> > An: Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com>
> >> > CC: talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
> >> > Betreff: Re: [talk-ph] Various
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> >
> >> > But barangays are not exactly villages, which is unlike Philippine
> >> > municipalities that are acknowledged equivalent to towns.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The Place= tag is used to denote the population size of a place, not
> >> > whether a place is actually a city, town, village etc.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > So someone listing all the world's "villages" would get inaccurate
> >> > data. Besides, I personally find very little use for a list of all
> >> > the world's villages for whatever analysis that list would be needed
> >> > for, unlike say, a list of all cities.
> >> >
> >> > That was a "Hypothetical" example.
> >> >
> >> > A non Hypothetical example (though not country specific) would be the
> >> > change from highway=gate to barrier=gate. Previously navigation S/W
> >> > only had to search for highway=gate to find roads to ignore. Now it
> >> > has to search for both, twice as much work for the same result.
> >> >
> >> > (Hmmm, maybe the "place=x" tags should also be accompanied with the "
> >> > admin_level=n" tags especially if the place matches the admin_level?
> >> > Seems like a good idea, don't you think?)
> >> >
> >> > Now that gets a +1 from me :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 10:04 PM, Ian Haylock <haylocki at yahoo.co.uk>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  Sorry,
> >> >
> >> > -1 from me.
> >> >
> >> > I think using country specific tags like "barangay" will cause
> >> > problems with people who use the data.
> >> >
> >> > As a hypothetical example, suppose someone wanted to list all the
> >> > villages in the osm database. If all the different countries used a
> >> > different name for village, such a simple task would become a pain in
> >> > the A**.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers, Ian
> >> >
> >> > --- On  *Mon, 24/11/08, *maning * sambale *<emmanuel.sambale at gmail.
> >> > com> wrote:
> >> >  From: maning sambale <emmanuel.sambale at gmail.com>
> >> > Subject: Re: [talk-ph] Various
> >> > To: "Eugene Alvin Villar" <seav80 at gmail.com>
> >> >  Cc: talk-ph at openstreetmap.org
> >> > Date: Monday, 24 November, 2008, 8:58 AM
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > +1 for me. That would be fairly easy for me to
> >> >  change the
> >> > place=village to place=barangay. But only for the ones I added. If
> >> > others would allow me to do so for them, I'll do it.
> >> >
> >> > What about the others? Any opinion on this?
> >> >
> >> > cheers,
> >> > maning
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 11/24/08, Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > Ok then. I'm all for tagging barangay center nodes with
> >> > place=barangay. We
> >> > > can just ask the renderers to place a special code to render
> >> >
> >> > place=barangay
> >> > > same as place=village.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 4:29 PM, maning sambale
> >> > > <emmanuel.sambale at gmail.com>wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >> Hi,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I am sending a discussion we (me and IanHaylock) had before with
> >> > Mike
> >> > >> Collinson (no talk-ph at that time) on tagging Barangays this in
> >> > the
> >> > >> context of when we are planning to import the GNS data.
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> For your comments
> >> > >> =======
> >> > >> Thanks for all the
> >> >  input. Here is a modified version of the script
> >> > >> with PPL mapping to village not town. As is, it also reads the
> >> > entire
> >> > >> rp.txt file but only outputs DCG=ADM2 POIs. The resulting file,
> >> > also
> >> > >> attached is exactly the same as the one you sent me but has an
> >> >
> >> > >> addition 'is_in:state=' tag. I am very keen to get lots of
> >> > 'is_in'
> >> > >> tags into the OSM database as it will make future searching much
> >> > >> easier. For example, if there is a critical mass of entries for
> >> >
> >> > >> Aurora Province spread across the province, it will be possible to
> >> > >> work out the approximate bounds of the province and limit searches
> >> > >> there. That removes the need to have exact boundary data.
> >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Do upload it if you think it is ready.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On the issue of PPL = village or barangay or locality, these are my
> >> > >> thoughts.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I suggest
> >> >  we definitely do not use 'locality', that is really
> >> > meant
> >> > >> for place names that do not coincide with any (current) population
> >> > >> centre.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> place=village
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >> > >> Plus: Works worldwide. Minus: Not strictly valid in a Philippine
> >> > context.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> place=barangay
> >> > >>
> >> > >> We'd need to get the OSMarender and Mapnik guys to add a render
> >> >
> >> > rule
> >> > >> for this. We could also ask for it to be added as a Map Features
> >> > >> value, but that is not strictly necessary. I'd guess the easiest
> >> > >> request would be to say, "please render this exactly the same as
> >> >
> >> > >> place=village"?
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> If I was explaining what Barangay means, does this sound right? :-
> >> > >>
> >> > >> place=barangay is specifically for Philippine use, though may be
> >> >
> >> > >> applicable in other parts of the world like South America. At
> >> >  an
> >> > >> administrative level, a Province (= a state) is divided into
> >> > >> muncipalities. Each municipality is controlled by a local council
> >> > and
> >> > >> has a mayor. A municipality is split into barangays[1], headed by
> >> >
> >> > >> Barangay captains. In rural areas, these equate to villages. In
> >> > urban
> >> > >> areas, these equate to suburbs often highly distinguishable on the
> >> > >> basis of social class. A rural muncipality, e.g. Donsol[2], may
> >> >
> >> > >> therefore have a town, Donsol, split into 3 or 4 barangays and
> >> > then to
> >> > >> It is important to mark them on OSM maps because they are used
> >> > >> extensively in every day navigation, information, politics etc.
> >> > They
> >> >
> >> > >> almost invariable equate to an obvious population centre (unlike
> >> > >> European wards). Street signs often show which barangay they are
> >> > in.
> >> > >> Jeepneys and buses often show a barangays as
> >> >  destinations.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barangay
> >> > >> [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donsol
> >> >
> >> > >> ==============
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On 11/22/08, Eugene Alvin Villar <seav80 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > >> > Hi Zoren,
> >> > >> >
> >> >
> >> > >> > On Sat, Nov 22, 2008 at 6:12 PM, <sorabsuperstar at web.de>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> > There's no discussion yet regarding barangays. I
> >> >
> >> > prefer leaving out
> >> > >> >> > the "Barangay" part of the name (unless
> >> > it's numeric like "Barangay
> >> > >> >> > 30").
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >> I was just about to send a second mail about that, as I
> >> >
> >> > realized that
> >> > >> >> at
> >> > >> >> certain zoom levels you can hardly see the map anymore
> >> > because of all
> >> > >> the
> >> > >> >> Brgy. names, or hardly see certain Brgy
> >> >  names because of the
> >> > other Brgy
> >> > >> >> names ;).
> >> > >> >> I guess the Brgy concept is a special Pinoy one. This is why
> >> > the
> >> > >> renderes
> >> > >> >> are not designed for such a high density of area names
> >> >
> >> > (especially with
> >> > >> >> regard to font sizes) . To ease this problem I highly
> >> > endorse Seav's
> >> > >> >> suggestion to omit redundant words "Barangay",
> >> > "Brgy."(anyway for being
> >> >
> >> > >> an
> >> > >> >> abbreviation), "Village",
> >> > "Subdivision"etc...; unless it is really part
> >> > >> of
> >> > >> >> the name as in "Barangay 30".
> >> > >> >> We should even make this a general national convention for
> >> >
> >> > OSM
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Regarding this, do not be too conscious of the rendering
> >> > problems. Try
> >> > >> not
> >> > >> > to "fix" the data just so it would render pretty. The
> >> >
> >> > important thing
> >> >  is
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > do the data right and just leave the renderers (Mapnik,
> >> > Osmarender,
> >> > >> > etc.)
> >> > >> to
> >> > >> > decide how to best present the data.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Eugene / seav
> >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > --
> >> > >> > http://vaes9.codedgraphic.com
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --
> >> > >> |---------|--------------------------------------------------------
> >> > --|
> >> >
> >> > >> | __.-._ |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great."
> >> > -Yoda |
> >> > >> | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea
> >> > of all" -N.Branden|
> >> > >> | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/
> >> >
> >> >  |
> >> > >> | | /T |http://esambale.wikispaces.com/ |
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> >> >
> >> > >> |---------|--------------------------------------------------------
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> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >  --
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> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
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> >> >
> >> > |
> >> > | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of
> >> > all" -N.Branden|
> >> > | /'.-c |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/ |
> >> >
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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> -- 
> |---------|----------------------------------------------------------|
> | __.-._  |"Ohhh. Great warrior. Wars not make one great." -Yoda     |
> | '-._"7' |"Freedom is still the most radical idea of all" -N.Branden|
> |  /'.-c  |Linux registered user #402901, http://counter.li.org/     |
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