[Talk-tr] Talk-tr Digest, Vol 75, Issue 2

Thu Jul 6 10:00:02 UTC 2017

Hi All,

Agreed it would be useful to put this up on the wiki.

And thanks Mert for the research.  I agree with most of your definitions,
but I'm still a bit unclear on the ilçe vs. semtler in Istanbul.  When I
pull down Istanbul Muncipal data via the CitySDK Project -
http://devcitysdk.ibb.gov.tr/, it seems clear that the city is divided into
39 districts which they call ilçe, and that each ilçe is then subdivided
into any number of mahalle.  So for example, Fatih District (ilçe) in
Istanbul is made up of 57 mahalle.  There is no mention of semtler here,
but I do not think that it refers to the same thing as ilçe.  If you look
on Wikipedia for Fatih - https://tr.wikipedia.org/wik
i/Kategori:Fatih,_%C4%B0stanbul%27un_mahalleleri - there is a list of
mahalle, which have definite boundaries, as well as a list of semtler
contained in that district.

Ali wrote me a response on this list but directly, and he said:

*Mahalle is the offical name and polygon feature as given by metropolitan
municipality as known as neighborhoods. But semt is the unoffical name as
known as by the people who live there, they are also bigger than
neighborhoods. I guess it occurs when municipality divided the
neighborhoods in part and give them new neighborhood names. In Istanbul we
have three offical border polygon as we use. These are İL as a province,
İLÇE as a county/district and MAHALLE as a neighborhood. I hope i could
help.*

So for this reason I think that semtler might best be tagged as
place=quarter, which according to the OSM wiki -
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dquarter - are smaller than a
suburb (district) and larger than a neighborhood, and "does not have to be
an administrative entity."  Yes, place=quarter is not a very common tag,
but I don't know how else we would want to tag semtleri.

On Thu, Jul 6, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Roman Neumüller <email at katpatuka.org>
wrote:

> Sağol Mert!
>
> I think the translation of https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place
> into Turkish would be quite helpful for beginners. Or a subpage of
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Turkey describing the
> place categorization in Turkey...
>
> On Wed, 05 Jul 2017 04:32:36 +0300, Mert Emin Kalender <
> merteminkalender at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Jeff for bringing this into our attention and Roman for looking
>> into this. I think OSM in Turkey is still growing (rather slowly) and needs
>> some more attention. As Roman mentioned, there is a group on Facebook where
>> people from Turkey discuss OSM, but it is rather casual and some members
>> do not speak English. I am an active OSM member mapping in and outside of
>> Turkey. I am also leading efforts to translate iD to Turkish and OSM wiki
>> into Turkish.
>>
>> I've done a quick research on administrative unit system in Turkey. The
>> document that could be used to model place classification is available
>> here <https://www.csb.gov.tr/db/cbs/editordosya/Idari_Birim.pdf>. Turkish
>>
>> administrative system is sort of messy and complicated. I think it is
>> important to have a discussion about place type classifications.
>>
>> From
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place#Administrative
>> ly_declared_places
>> perspective, the following mapping sounds reasonable to me:
>> - place=country => ülke
>> - place=state => not applicable
>> - place=region => bölge
>> - place=province => il
>> - place=district => semt/ilçe - I think semt is a name used for "ilçe"
>> when
>> "ilçe" is part of the city center's administrative boundary. The following
>> image has districts of İstanbul -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_districts_in_Turkey#/m
>> edia/File:Istanbul_location_districts.svg
>> Semt
>> vs ilçe don't seem any different. But look at the districts of Eskişehir -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_districts_in_Turkey#/m
>> edia/File:Eski%C5%9Fehir_districts.png
>> Tepebaşı and Odunpazarı forms the city Eskişehir (marked with black
>> border). These "semt"s are combined together under "büyükşehir
>> belediyesi".
>> Look at Afyonkarahisar -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_districts_in_Turkey#/m
>> edia/File:Afyonkarahisar_districts.png
>> In this case city center only has one "semt/ilçe", which is
>> "Afyonkarahisar
>> merkezi". They are referred as "merkez ilçe".
>> - place=county => I don't think this type really applies to Turkey.
>> - place=municipality => This could be another source of confusion. We've
>> had recent updates to town smaller than "ilçe", but bigger than "köy".
>> This
>> type could be mapped to "belde" I think.
>>
>> Regarding
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place#Populated_sett
>> lements.2C_urban
>> - place=city => il, şehir, even bigger metropolitan cities are could be
>> mapped to this type.
>> - place=borough => I don't think this is really applicable.
>> - place=suburb => Again this could be used for "'ilçe" and "semt".
>> - place=quarter => Similar to borough, I don't think this is really
>> applicable.
>> - place=neighbourhood => This is mahalle. Within "semt/ilçe" we have
>> neighbourhoods.
>> - place=city_block => Doesn't really apply to Turkey.
>>
>> Looking at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place#Populated_sett
>> lements.2C_urban_and_rural
>> I can easily tell that Turkish place/administrative unit system doesn't
>> really fit into here. Let's look at Afyonkarahisar district map again -
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_districts_in_Turkey#/m
>> edia/File:Afyonkarahisar_districts.png
>> I am from Emirdağ. It could be referred as town and district as well. My
>> town has neighborhoods just like districts have. The municipality system
>> is
>> same as districts. So I think we can classify them as town and also
>> district.
>> - place=town => ilçe, but rural ilçe. "Belde"s are towns that belong to
>> another town, but bigger than a village.
>> - place=village => köy (doesn't have municipality, but rather part of a
>> ilçe, just like belde)
>> - place=hamlet => mezra/mahalle (be aware the use of mahalle here)
>> - place=isolated_dwelling => could be mezra/mahalle I think.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 5:00 AM, <talk-tr-request at openstreetmap.org>
>> wrote:
>>
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>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>>    1. Istanbul neighborhood classifications (Jeff Haack)
>>>    2. Re: Istanbul neighborhood classifications (Roman Neumüller)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 10:42:29 +0300
>>> From: Jeff Haack <jeff.haack at hotosm.org>
>>> To: talk-tr at openstreetmap.org
>>> Subject: [Talk-tr] Istanbul neighborhood classifications
>>> Message-ID:
>>>         <CAKLN2i93rxg1OQKMh=KXB9PkZq8HCKfiutzq5hWBknWoOEKUjg at mail.
>>> gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Hi OSMers,
>>>
>>> I'm trying to understand the placename classifications in Istanbul and
>>> how
>>> those relate to OSM tags, and hoping someone can help.  In Istanbul there
>>> are ilçe (districts) and mahalle (neighborhoods).  But then there are
>>> also
>>> semtler - what is the difference between mahalle and semtler?
>>>
>>> Also I'm wondering about how to tag places.  From the OSM wiki it seems
>>> that districts should be place=suburb and mahalle should be
>>> place=neighborhood, but on the map the districts are usually place=town
>>> and
>>> mahalle/semtleri are either place=suburb or place=neighborhood.  Is there
>>> any reason for tagging ilçe as place=town?
>>>
>>> Does anyone have a suggestion on how to formalize the tags?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Jeff
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>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2017 12:40:49 +0300
>>> From: Roman Neumüller <email at katpatuka.org>
>>> To: talk-tr at openstreetmap.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Talk-tr] Istanbul neighborhood classifications
>>> Message-ID: <op.y2uiiblwkn9205 at bigmama>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1254; format=flowed;
>>>         delsp=yes
>>>
>>> Hi Jeff,
>>>
>>> I've been mapping a lot in Turkey but can only tell for sure that
>>>
>>> * il = province (admin_level=4)
>>> * ilçe = town = district = district center (admin_level=6)
>>> * köy = village (admin_level=8)
>>>
>>> Concerning suburb/neighborhood (mahalle/semt) I'm still unsure and up to
>>> now
>>> didn't get ANY response from the Turkish community regarding
>>> classification
>>> (see
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-tr/2014-
>>> November/000362.html)
>>>
>>> The community is not very active in the mailinglist - they may be more
>>> active in
>>> a facebook group (I don't use fb)
>>>
>>>    https://www.facebook.com/OpenStreetMapTurkey/
>>>
>>> Semt seems as if only being used in big cities - wikipedia calls them
>>> "quarters":
>>>
>>> * https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategori:Türkiye'deki_semtler
>>> * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Quarters_in_Turkey
>>>
>>> Even villages may have 1) suburbs which I give the neighborhood tag and
>>> 2)
>>> "mezra"s
>>> where I use hamlet.
>>>
>>> Yayla vary from location (no house at all) over hamlet (some houses) to
>>> suburb/village
>>> (if big like a village)
>>>
>>> Wikipedia says yayla = Plateau - in German I'd rather call them "Alm".
>>>
>>> Bucak is sort of deprecated
>>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucak_(administrative_unit))
>>>
>>> Another thing is that most villages in metropolitan municipalities have
>>> been converted
>>> to suburbs (6360 Metropolıtan Law) after 2012
>>>
>>> http://econpapers.repec.org/article/scn000raj/383.htm
>>>
>>> On Tue, 04 Jul 2017 10:42:29 +0300, Jeff Haack <jeff.haack at hotosm.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi OSMers,
>>> >
>>> > I'm trying to understand the placename classifications in Istanbul and
>>> > how those relate to OSM tags, and hoping someone can help.  In Istanbul
>>> > there
>>> > are ilçe (districts) and mahalle (neighborhoods).  But then there are
>>> > also semtler - what is the difference between mahalle and semtler?
>>> >
>>> > Also I'm wondering about how to tag places.  From the OSM wiki it seems
>>> > that districts should be place=suburb and mahalle should be
>>> > place=neighborhood, but on the map the districts are usually place=town
>>> > and mahalle/semtleri are either place=suburb or place=neighborhood.  Is
>>> > there
>>> > any reason for tagging ilçe as place=town?
>>> >
>>> > Does anyone have a suggestion on how to formalize the tags?
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> > Jeff
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> katpatuka.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> End of Talk-tr Digest, Vol 75, Issue 2
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>
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> katpatuka.org
>
>
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-- 
Jeff Haack
Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team
jeff.haack at hotosm.org
+90 537 821 1338
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