[Talk-transit] NaPTAN bus stops

Peter J Stoner stonerpj at mytraveline.info
Sun Aug 23 00:09:31 BST 2009

In message on 22 Aug 2009,  Peter Miller  wrote:

> On 21 Aug 2009, at 17:13, Chris Hill wrote:

>> Roger Slevin wrote:
>>> Peter
>>> I can confirm that the Department for Transport would be supportive
>>> of any way in which we (and the local editors who maintain NaPTAN
>>> data as best they can) can get the feedback from OSM contributions
>>> to improve data accuracy.  I will be happy to discuss how best this
>>> can be done – but I suggest that you and others on this list are
>>> much better placed to propose a method that works within the
>>> framework of OSM.
>>> Roger
>> [snip]
>>> I have reported the faults I have found via the professional
>>> service we run for the DfT for the purpose
>>> (http://www.itoworld.com/static/naptan
>>> ). I suggest that the DfT/Traveline might consider making this
>>> interface available to OSM mapping people to do the same or opening
>>> up a public version.
>>> It will be useful in time to run a comparison between the current
>>> NaPTAN and the current OSM and produce reports of where they are
>>> diverging. We would need the permission of the department to take a
>>> cut of the NaPTAN data before each run but I think they would be
>>> supportive.
>> Sorry for the last post - finger trouble.
>> So it seems that feeding back to NaPTAN would be good since they are
>> interested in these improvements.  As such we need to find all of
>> the differences, including position changes.  This still leaves us
>> with the question: do we amend the naptan: tags or add our own to
>> show the changes?  What did the West Midlands guys do?

> Thinking about this.

> I believe that we are of the opinion that the naptan tags are useful
> but only relevant to the UK and I don't think anyone is suggesting
> that an import of data from Portland or Washington DC should use these
> NaPTAN tags. So, do we need tags in the real OSM namespace tags for
> all the main elements of NaPTAN that we need to use (for example
> bearing from naptan:bearing, indicator from naptan:indicator and
> local_ref from naptan:ATCO_code?). In some cases these will be copies
> of the naptan namespace data for the UK. For other imports it might
> using GTFS or other formats might use ia GTFS namespace for the
> imported data and then the same tags as for NaPTAN for the main OSM
> tags.

> If that is the case then we should leave the naptan information alone
> and only adjust the OSM tags. The only problem is that some of those
> fields are not current populated or even defined in OSM (for example
> bearing).

> For now I have changing the NaPTAN fields where I consider that they
> are wrong because we can spot that sort of thing in an refresh import
> of NaPTAN.

> For a future 'refresh import' of NaPTAN the rule could be that we
> replace the data in the NaPTAN namespace (noting any changes in a log
> that is made available to the local community) and then notice where
> there are conflicts between OSM changes and official changes within
> the tags in the OSM namespace. Where the NapTAN data has changed but
> the OSM tags still match the naptan tags then the OSM tags can be
> updated, Where the OSM tags are no longer the same as the NaPTAN tags
> then that would be a 'conflict' and would need to deal with manually.

> If this is what we want then we should get it onto the wiki.

It is good that DfT are supportive and Traveline will be very pleased 
to have the feedback too.  However I just want to put in a plea that 
we do not take the staff in the local authorities for granted.  They 
edit the NaPTAN data and most won't know much yet about the OSM 
involvement, or even understand how OSM works.  I have found some 
supportive and some hostile.

My suggestion is to keep the OSM feedback seperate from the manual 
warnings in the ITO NaPTAN service so that local authorities can 
decide to opt in to the feedback if they want to.  Once word gets 
round about the quality of the feedback then I think everyone will 
want it.

Best wishes.

Peter J Stoner
UK Regional Coordinator         www.travelinedata.org.uk

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