[Talk-transit] All about bus stops

Peter Miller peter.miller at itoworld.com
Fri Jan 23 05:44:50 GMT 2009

On 22 Jan 2009, at 19:55, Gerrit Lammert wrote:

> Hi Gerald.
> Gerald A wrote:
>> Your "tram" stop floated in the middle of the tram line, but people  
>> were
>> waiting on the curb. The "<OO>" bit I added represents the island I  
>> was
>> talking about.
>> Our streetcars have right of way, and without one of these islands,
>> passengers getting on and off would stop the traffic in the ">>>"  
>> lane by
>> law. The link I sent you shows an image of one of these, and they  
>> are almost
>> always near a cross-street with traffic signals.
> OK, this is actally the exact situation I was referring to the first
> time. I guess our google maps examples were not good enough. :)
> In mine the rails are barely visible and there are now landmarks on  
> the
> "island". You can see a couple of people on the right side though,
> indicating there might be something in the middle of the road to stand
> upon. :)
> Back to the scenario. stop tagging scheme aside:
> When I encounter a piece of way that is physically devided (like by  
> the
> island in this example), I would split the road/tram-combination and
> have them modelled as different lanes for this short section.
> In the above example, I would have 3 lanes.
> One combining the uppermost lanes  
> (highway=xxx;railway=tram;oneway=yes)
> One for the tram in the other direction (railway=tram;oneway=yes)
> And one for the missing road lane (highway=xxx;oneway=yes).
> I would do this, because othe than before and after the "island" i  
> could
> not physically cross the opposite lane from my line.
> IF this situation is mapped in this way, the bus stop and
> platform/shelter/... positions can be placed at the proper positions.
> See
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=52.26911&lon=10.52976&zoom=17&layers=B000TFTF
> and
> http://maps.google.de/?ie=UTF8&ll=52.269172,10.529677&spn=0.000633,0.001743&t=h&z=20
> for the earlier mentioned real life example.
>>> In general: There are a lot of situation with trams and other  
>>> vehicles than
>>> can not be mapped 100% accurate by now.

I think we will need to add more detail to shouldn't worry about that.

In the above example above (with Google Photography) it is significant  
that when zoomed in there appears to be only one platform. Are there  
tracks on both sides or only on one side of the platform? If so then  
that is worth modeling. Of course tram tracks also share space with  
cars some time which is annoying from a modeling perspective!

Can I suggest we produce a set of example 'edge use-cases' on the wiki  
where we give real examples, real grid references and show what we  
recommend in the situation. I just know that there is lots more of  
this detail to talk through and I am keen we capture the conclusions  
for others. As a test for the modelling I suggest we ask if it would  
be good enough for a blind pedestrian to understand how to get to the  
tram and where to go in which order, in other words good pedestrian  
routing. We therefore need to position of the pedestrian crossing to  
get to the platform.

I suggest we have a page for trams which are particularly messy things  
because they share road space with cars for some of the time and not  
for other times. fun fun.

>> Agreed.
>>> Some propose to always have a discrete way for every "lane" like:
>>>    |      |           |      |           |         |           |
>>>    |      |           |      |           |         |           |
>>> foot | bike | curb/kerb | car1 | car2&tram | barrier | car2&tram  
>>> | ...
>>>    |      |           |      |           |         |           |
>>>    |      |           |      |           |         |           |
>>> But I rather loose some detail (like: on a two lane-road with  
>>> combined
>>> tram, is the tram on the first or second lane?) than mess with  
>>> multiple ways
>>> and all the added information on where one is able to change from  
>>> one to the
>>> other...
>> Well, this was sort of what I was getting at -- without creating a  
>> mapping
>> nightmare in terms of mapping individual lanes as ways around this  
>> one
>> feature, how can we take this into account?
> See above. In general I'm very undecided on how to go at these things.
> In the end dividing into different lanes might be the most general
> solution, but I dread the editing nightmare and the data amount
> explosion. That's why I settle for this hybrid approach...

Lets identify some of these trickly more situations on the wiki and  
provide a link to the OSM map for the place in question so we can see  
how it has been coded and can comment, or indeed dive in a edit! We  
should expect the tagging to evolve voer the next 6 months. THe  
challenge of this list is to get the tagging standard around the world  
at the end of that 6 months!

>> I hope all is clear now ... and thanks for talking it out with me.  
>> Makes it
>> a bit clearer for me as well.
> Thats the idea. Charing best practices. :)

Just to say that I would like to have more time this week for this  
stuff. I am reading even if I am not responding.
> Gerrit
> PS: Sorry for this incomplete discussion. I always forget to add the
> mailing list when hitting reply. Could someone modify the list's
> settings so that the mailing lists address is the default reply-to?

I can do that. However there is strong advice not to do so and it is  
not how the rest of the OSM lists work - As such I would suggest that  
we maintain consistency with other OSM lists and try to remember to  
'reply all'.

Btw, would anyone else like to be an administrator or moderator. I am  
currently the only one of both. I suggest we could do with about three  
moderators and these should be people who expect to be plugging away  
at this topic for some time to come! The reasons for sharing it are in  
case to get, errr, hit by a bus. As for administrator, I suggest we  
use the main OSM administrators for that who can make more  
administrators as necessary- I don't see us changing any settings any  
time soon. The work for moderators appears to only be to deal with  
posts by non-subscribers. My response to all non-subscribers is to  
email them privately and ask them to subscribe and try again. I don't  
post any messages from non-subscribers on the basis that it is better  
to get properly one the list first.


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