[Talk-transit] Public transport schema

Peter Miller peter.miller at itoworld.com
Tue Jun 2 22:27:55 BST 2009

On 2 Jun 2009, at 18:18, Thomas Wood wrote:

> 2009/6/2 Sebastian Schwarz <yugo at kahlfrost.de>:
>> Hi!
>> Well, I have been en-route the last days and thus did not have time  
>> to
>> respond to any of the numerous mails covering almost all aspects of
>> the new proposal relating to public transport. But I see the
>> discussion sort of loosing sight of the mappers. From my point of
>> view, we should find a good compromise which primarily serves the
>> mappers and not the CEN. So, the schema should not be as compliant as
>> possible to the standards but as good as possible for the mappers -
>> provided with a reasonable part of standard compliance, of course. We
>> do not want to model Heathrow Airport (apart from that, airports have
>> never been part of the proposal!) but we want to start with the bus
>> station around the corner!
> But by it's nature as the foundation of how transportation stop areas
> are represented in OSM, then airports are important as a higher tier
> of transportation. By their nature, they'll often have several other
> modes of transport related to them, metro, mainline rail, bus and
> coach services, and they should still be seen by routing software as
> an interchange that could be possibly used.
> In time, we will want to map them in excessive detail, whilst we have
> the opportunity, this scheme should allow the scope for further
> expansion of other transportation types.

Firstly, can I say again how much your proposal is appreciated. We  
have needed to do a thorough review of PT related tagging for  
consistency for some time and your work is a great starting point.

Secondly, can I apologise for tearing into you document and I hope we  
haven't ruined you thesis but from a Wikipedia perspective this is how  
good articles get written. People build something, others build on it,  
some changes stick, some get challenged and removed, but the general  
direction is positive. Your work certainly isn't going to gather dust  
on some shelf but will be used with a vengeance very soon - I just  
want to make sure that we do the design work at this stage to ensure  
that it is robust before it gets extensively used.

With reference to mappers, I really don't think we are making things  
much harder for the average mapper are we? Once we agree on terms and  
definitions that is. We have rationalised platforms and bus stops and  
ferry quays into Accesses. We have renamed Stop Areas as Stop Places.  
We have added Stopping Places and Stop Place Groups. We are proposing  
a new relation binding from Accesses to Stopping Places.  I am  
proposing that we added Entrances and Boarding Points, but all these  
are optional extras to the modelling and not something that the  
average mapper needs to touch to start with.

Regarding Heathrow Airport. The coach/bus station within the airport  
is the busiest in the UK (http://www.milesfaster.co.uk/information/heathrow-airport/heathrow-central-bus-coach-station.htm 
) and we will of course map transport interchanges in absurd detail  
when we run out of other things to do!

CEN: My experience is that one has to be careful when one doesn't   
follow standards or ignores them; the old rule, 'if you can't be good  
be careful' comes to mind. For sure, there is some nonsense in  
standards for geopolitical reasons, but transmodel is pretty clean and  
so is IFOPT. If you cut corners in relation to a CEN standard you can  
expect to come unstuck in some situation that you hadn't considered  
and then you will have to bodge it. For example by assuming that each  
stopping place has only one Access and one Access is only associated  
with one Stopping Place. I know that because I have been there and  
done it!

What we have already is very good - we are not slavishly following  
CEN, but as far as I am concerned we follow it where appropriate and  
are now aware of the places where we are not following it and we are  
confident that we are doing it for a good reason and that it will  
work. The only section that has not been reviewed in relation to CEN  
is the section about Railway Routes, Railway Lines and Line Variants  
which again is close but we can still learn from CEN and clarify the  

Ok...   Um.... Well...   So I have now just looked at the current  
version of the document and noticed that you have reverted just about  
all my changes over the past few days. I find that rather unnecessary  
and I would like to have some clarification about why that was  
necessary or useful to do that without consultation. For sure some  
changes could be challenged, but all of them? No one else had  
challenged them on the list on the wiki since Saturday. Fyi, Here is  
the difference between the version just before I made my first changes  
and the current version (they are basically the same).

And here is the difference between the last version I touched and the  
current version. I think it is clear that a huge amount of work has  
been removed without discussion, including reverting 'loading gauge'  
to millimetres when it is most certainly more complex than that as I  
explained; reverting Stop Place to Stop Area without explanation (a  
clash with CEN terminology). Removing the alphabetical sort order for  
the the railways section for no obvious reason. Removing '{{tag|route| 
ferry}}' and reverting it to 'non-existent' etc etc.

Could I politely suggest that we revert the document to the place  
where Nixim left the document on the 31st having added '{{tag|route| 
ferry}}'. For sure then make changes from there that you thing are  
good, but do build on the previous work as this is the normal way.

Can I also suggest that we move the page to the general wiki space and  
out of your user area as this page has now definitely graduated from  
being just a personal page.





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> -- 
> Regards,
> Thomas Wood
> (Edgemaster)
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