[Talk-transit] Interesting NapTAN/OSM data

Brian Prangle bprangle at googlemail.com
Thu Oct 22 14:56:12 BST 2009


In response to Peter's request for feed back for his "top brass" look at the
detail we can achieve for example at West Brom bus station and Dudley bus
station, also the growing bus route map for the West Midlands (
http://www.öpnvkarte.de/?lat=52.4724&lon=-1.8856&zoom=14<http://www.xn--pnvkarte-m4a.de/?lat=52.4724&lon=-1.8856&zoom=14>)
based on the route_ref tags on our surveyed bus stops.

2009/10/22 <talk-transit-request at openstreetmap.org>

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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: NOVAM is back (Peter Miller)
>   2. NaPTAN case study (Christopher Osborne)
>   3. Re: NaPTAN case study (Chris Hill)
>   4. Re: NOVAM is back (Vincent Pottier)
>   5. Re: NaPTAN case study (Peter Miller)
>   6. Re: NOVAM is back (Christoph Boehme)
>   7. Re: NOVAM is back (Christoph Boehme)
>   8. Re: NOVAM is back (Christoph Boehme)
>   9. Re: NOVAM is back (Christoph Boehme)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:41:45 +0100
> From: Peter Miller <peter.miller at itoworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <460271B2-EC11-402B-9018-F4A89A7AF36D at itoworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 22 Oct 2009, at 11:52, Shaun McDonald wrote:
>
> >
> > On 22 Oct 2009, at 11:03, Peter Miller wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 22 Oct 2009, at 10:11, Christoph Boehme wrote:
> >>
> >>> Good Morning,
> >>>
> >>> this is just to let you know that NOVAM is working again. It can be
> >>> found on http://mappa-mercia.org/novam . Please update any old links
> >>> and
> >>> booksmarks.
> >>>
> >>> Since I decided not to implement a merging functionality on the
> >>> website
> >>> I have removed most of the old user interface elements and made the
> >>> NOVAM viewer the new interface. Please tell me if you miss any
> >>> functionality from the old user interface.
> >>>
> >>> I will update the colour coding of the bus stops at the weekend.
> >>
> >> Thanks Christoph. Much clearer.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I understand that when you update the colours you will show:-
> >>
> >> 1) Unverified naptan import nodes (ie with verified=no)
> >> 2) bus stops in OSM which don't have any NaPTAN fields (ie ones
> >> without a naptan:AtcoCode field).
> >> 3) stops that don't have all the expected fields (please remove
> >> routeref field from this test)
> >
> > Why not show the items that are missing somehow for each bus stop?
> >
> > I don't yet see any green happy bus stops in London and can't see why.
> >
> >> 4) and of course... complete and happy stops which have everything
> >> required!
> >>
> >> Can I suggest that you place stops with issues on top of ones without
> >> issues on the browser, so that stops with problems are not obscured
> >> by
> >> nearby ones which are ok.
> >>
> >> When you have that in place I will I suppose have to go and complete
> >> the review of stops in my town!
> >>
> >
> > Looking across London it looks like the majority are "Merged bus
> > stop which still lack some tags" when they should be "Bus stop which
> > was imported from NaPTAN and which has not been verified yet", would
> > it be possible to get the logic changed?
> >
> > Would it be possible if you could add a permalink?
> >
> > What about a node id and a link to Potlatch/JOSM?
>
> All good ideas. A 'see this area of mapping in openstreetmap.org'
> would also be great.
>
> The 'help' link doesn't see to be much help btw (it just links back to
> the same page as far as I can see). Possibly a page of explanation
> would be good.
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> >
> > Shaun
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Thanks again,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Peter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>> Christoph
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Talk-transit mailing list
> >>> Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Talk-transit mailing list
> >> Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-transit mailing list
> > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:44:19 +0100
> From: Christopher Osborne <chris.gaijin at gmail.com>
> Subject: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN case study
> To: talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID:
>        <80412a480910220444k4a4de460jb951d1e39894e8fd at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hello all
>
> As part of the data.gov.uk experiments, I had several encounters with top
> brass of various gov departments. They were very excited in the NaPTAN
> import, none of them had heard about it and as far as I know it is the
> first
> example of crowdsourced improvements to a UK gov dataset.
>
> Very glad to see http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/ is back online today. I
> need
> to prepare some briefing information to send back to top brass, and was
> wondering where are some good locations to show off the great work
> OSMappers
> have been doing with the NaPTAN data?
>
> --
> Christopher Osborne
> www.itoworld.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 12:55:52 +0100
> From: Chris Hill <osm at raggedred.net>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN case study
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <4AE04848.2070004 at raggedred.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Christopher Osborne wrote:
> > Hello all
> >
> > As part of the data.gov.uk <http://data.gov.uk> experiments, I had
> > several encounters with top brass of various gov departments. They
> > were very excited in the NaPTAN import, none of them had heard about
> > it and as far as I know it is the first example of crowdsourced
> > improvements to a UK gov dataset.
> >
> > Very glad to see http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/ is back online today.
> > I need to prepare some briefing information to send back to top brass,
> > and was wondering where are some good locations to show off the great
> > work OSMappers have been doing with the NaPTAN data?
> >
> > --
> > Christopher Osborne
> > www.itoworld.com <http://www.itoworld.com>
> We have checked about 75% of the stops in Hull. I have established a
> contact in the city council's transport team who has received the data
> we have checked with all of our comments about what we found so far.  I
> hope he will use the data to feed back to NaPTAN so eventually the
> quality will improve all round.
>
> I created a simple overlay for the city http://bus.raggedred.net to help
> to show the progress but also to highlight stops that we have found that
> need correction to the NaPTAN data. I like the idea and the look of
> NOVAM, esp. because it is national and updates regularly, but it doesn't
> yet show quite what I need to help the council team.
>
> Cheers, Chris
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:33:02 +0200
> From: Vincent Pottier <vpottier at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <4AE050FE.7010102 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Christoph Boehme a ?crit :
> > Good Morning,
> >
> > this is just to let you know that NOVAM is working again. It can be
> > found on http://mappa-mercia.org/novam . Please update any old links and
> > booksmarks.
> >
> > Since I decided not to implement a merging functionality on the website
> > I have removed most of the old user interface elements and made the
> > NOVAM viewer the new interface. Please tell me if you miss any
> > functionality from the old user interface.
> >
> > I will update the colour coding of the bus stops at the weekend.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Christoph
> >
> Hi,
> There is no control of the map with the URL, and no permalink to check
> the URLs and add it to the mapJumper :
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:FrViPofm/mapJumper
>
> http://frvipofm.net/osm/mapjumper/?mode=hub
>
> Sorry, I wanted to translate the wiki page into English but English is
> not my native language... If somebody wants  to try the translation.
>
> --
> Vincent alias FrViPofm
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 13:54:13 +0100
> From: Peter Miller <peter.miller at itoworld.com>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NaPTAN case study
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <4DF03676-52C7-4A80-A1DE-77D355A5F678 at itoworld.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
>
>
> On 22 Oct 2009, at 12:55, Chris Hill wrote:
>
> > Christopher Osborne wrote:
> >> Hello all
> >>
> >> As part of the data.gov.uk <http://data.gov.uk> experiments, I had
> >> several encounters with top brass of various gov departments. They
> >> were very excited in the NaPTAN import, none of them had heard about
> >> it and as far as I know it is the first example of crowdsourced
> >> improvements to a UK gov dataset.
> >>
> >> Very glad to see http://mappa-mercia.org/novam/ is back online today.
> >> I need to prepare some briefing information to send back to top
> >> brass,
> >> and was wondering where are some good locations to show off the great
> >> work OSMappers have been doing with the NaPTAN data?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Christopher Osborne
> >> www.itoworld.com <http://www.itoworld.com>
> > We have checked about 75% of the stops in Hull. I have established a
> > contact in the city council's transport team who has received the data
> > we have checked with all of our comments about what we found so
> > far.  I
> > hope he will use the data to feed back to NaPTAN so eventually the
> > quality will improve all round.
> >
> > I created a simple overlay for the city http://bus.raggedred.net to
> > help
> > to show the progress but also to highlight stops that we have found
> > that
> > need correction to the NaPTAN data. I like the idea and the look of
> > NOVAM, esp. because it is national and updates regularly, but it
> > doesn't
> > yet show quite what I need to help the council team.
>
> In Ipswich I have re-surveyed the NaPTAN data for about 1/3rd of the
> town so far and found errors in about 5% to 10% of the stops
> (including major transport interchanges such as the bus station,
> railway station and hospital) which have all been reported and most
> have now been fixed in the source data. I will complete the survey
> when NOVAM is up-and-running.
>
> Just to note that Chris and I had a meeting with Transport Direct
> earlier in the week and we were discussing ways to open up a direct
> reporting system for faults back to the relevant data owners with some
> layers of management reporting back to the DfT to ensure that reports
> are dealt with. This should help with feedback in time, more on that
> in due course.
>
> I also had a review meeting of the Ideas in Transit research project
> yesterday with the Technology Strategy Board and they were keen to
> know how the NaPTAN data was being used within OSM to do interesting
> things and wanted me to put a report together about what was
> happening. I mentioned that the data now appeared on the main OSM map
> renderings. Anything else I should mention?
>
> In summary, I think that this import is now being seen by the UK
> government as possibly the first major example of crowd-sourcing for
> the improvement of official data, and that if they can show that it
> has been successful then more data may follow. :)
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Peter
>
>
> >
> > Cheers, Chris
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-transit mailing list
> > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:10:45 +0100
> From: Christoph Boehme <christoph at b3e.net>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <20091022141045.1d62990f at psg310.bham.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Chris Hill <osm at raggedred.net> wrote:
> > Christoph Boehme wrote:
> > > Good Morning,
> > >
> > > this is just to let you know that NOVAM is working again. It can be
> > > found on http://mappa-mercia.org/novam . Please update any old
> > > links and booksmarks.
> > >
> > > Since I decided not to implement a merging functionality on the
> > > website I have removed most of the old user interface elements and
> > > made the NOVAM viewer the new interface. Please tell me if you miss
> > > any functionality from the old user interface.
> > >
> > > I will update the colour coding of the bus stops at the weekend.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Christoph
> > >
> > Thanks Christoph.  How do I find what what tags are needed to be
> > completely tagged?
>
> The current rules are listed in message [1]. These were devised when we
> did the first trial import in the Birmingham area which had the Naptan
> stops imported without highway=bus_stop tags. Since then most other
> areas opted to have the Naptan stops automatically activated. So, the
> original colour scheme does not really work anymore. The new colour
> scheme which I plan to add at the weekend is outlined in message [2].
>
> > The page still won't print (produces a largely
> > blank page from FF3) which is valuable for taking out to find stops
> > yet to be checked.
>
> I'll have a look at this. One problem is probably that there is no
> stylesheet for printing and the other problem might be that almost all
> page content is added with Javascript.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> [1]
>
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2009-September/000324.html
> [2]
>
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb-westmidlands/2009-September/000343.html
>
> > Cheers, Chris
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-transit mailing list
> > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:19:02 +0100
> From: Christoph Boehme <christoph at b3e.net>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <20091022141902.379473da at psg310.bham.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Peter Miller <peter.miller at itoworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 22 Oct 2009, at 10:11, Christoph Boehme wrote:
> >
> > > Good Morning,
> > >
> > > this is just to let you know that NOVAM is working again. It can be
> > > found on http://mappa-mercia.org/novam . Please update any old
> > > links and
> > > booksmarks.
> > >
> > > Since I decided not to implement a merging functionality on the
> > > website
> > > I have removed most of the old user interface elements and made the
> > > NOVAM viewer the new interface. Please tell me if you miss any
> > > functionality from the old user interface.
> > >
> > > I will update the colour coding of the bus stops at the weekend.
> >
> > Thanks Christoph. Much clearer.
> >
> >
> >
> > I understand that when you update the colours you will show:-
> >
> > 1) Unverified naptan import nodes (ie with verified=no)
> > 2) bus stops in OSM which don't have any NaPTAN fields (ie ones
> > without a naptan:AtcoCode field).
> > 3) stops that don't have all the expected fields (please remove
> > routeref field from this test)
> > 4) and of course... complete and happy stops which have everything
> > required!
>
> Yes, that was my plan as we discussed it a while ago.
>
> > Can I suggest that you place stops with issues on top of ones
> > without issues on the browser, so that stops with problems are not
> > obscured by nearby ones which are ok.
>
> I need to see how this can be done in Openlayers. I have not yet found a
> way to control the stacking of the icons. At the moment adding or
> changing an icon brings it to the top. This is, of course, not really
> satisfying.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> > When you have that in place I will I suppose have to go and complete
> > the review of stops in my town!
> >
> > Thanks again,
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Christoph
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Talk-transit mailing list
> > > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-transit mailing list
> > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:27:07 +0100
> From: Christoph Boehme <christoph at b3e.net>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <20091022142707.4a72f5dc at psg310.bham.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Vincent Pottier <vpottier at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Christoph Boehme a ?crit :
> > > Good Morning,
> > >
> > > this is just to let you know that NOVAM is working again. It can be
> > > found on http://mappa-mercia.org/novam . Please update any old
> > > links and booksmarks.
> > >
> > > Since I decided not to implement a merging functionality on the
> > > website I have removed most of the old user interface elements and
> > > made the NOVAM viewer the new interface. Please tell me if you miss
> > > any functionality from the old user interface.
> > >
> > > I will update the colour coding of the bus stops at the weekend.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Christoph
> > >
> > Hi,
> > There is no control of the map with the URL, and no permalink to check
> > the URLs and add it to the mapJumper :
>
> I'll add a Permalink and URL control to the map next weekend. Then it
> should work with mapJumper, shouldn't it?
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:FrViPofm/mapJumper
> >
> > http://frvipofm.net/osm/mapjumper/?mode=hub
> >
> > Sorry, I wanted to translate the wiki page into English but English is
> > not my native language... If somebody wants  to try the translation.
> >
> > --
> > Vincent alias FrViPofm
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-transit mailing list
> > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:30:41 +0100
> From: Christoph Boehme <christoph at b3e.net>
> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] NOVAM is back
> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>        <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org>
> Message-ID: <20091022143041.6db4342f at psg310.bham.ac.uk>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Peter Miller <peter.miller at itoworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 22 Oct 2009, at 11:52, Shaun McDonald wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > On 22 Oct 2009, at 11:03, Peter Miller wrote:
> > >> 1) Unverified naptan import nodes (ie with verified=no)
> > >> 2) bus stops in OSM which don't have any NaPTAN fields (ie ones
> > >> without a naptan:AtcoCode field).
> > >> 3) stops that don't have all the expected fields (please remove
> > >> routeref field from this test)
> > >
> > > Why not show the items that are missing somehow for each bus stop?
> > >
> > > I don't yet see any green happy bus stops in London and can't see
> > > why.
>
> That's very good idea! I'll try to add it soon.
>
> > >> 4) and of course... complete and happy stops which have everything
> > >> required!
> > >>
> > >> Can I suggest that you place stops with issues on top of ones
> > >> without issues on the browser, so that stops with problems are not
> > >> obscured by
> > >> nearby ones which are ok.
> > >>
> > >> When you have that in place I will I suppose have to go and
> > >> complete the review of stops in my town!
> > >>
> > >
> > > Looking across London it looks like the majority are "Merged bus
> > > stop which still lack some tags" when they should be "Bus stop
> > > which was imported from NaPTAN and which has not been verified
> > > yet", would it be possible to get the logic changed?
> > >
> > > Would it be possible if you could add a permalink?
>
> Yes, I'll add it.
>
> > > What about a node id and a link to Potlatch/JOSM?
>
> Will be added too.
>
> > All good ideas. A 'see this area of mapping in openstreetmap.org'
> > would also be great.
>
> Do you mean in an editor or just on the OSM website?
>
> > The 'help' link doesn't see to be much help btw (it just links back
> > to the same page as far as I can see). Possibly a page of
> > explanation would be good.
>
> There is no help available yet. Perhaps I better remove the link
> completely until some documentation has been compiled.
>
> Cheers,
> Christoph
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Peter
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Shaun
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Thanks again,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Peter
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>>
> > >>> Cheers,
> > >>> Christoph
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> Talk-transit mailing list
> > >>> Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > >>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> Talk-transit mailing list
> > >> Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Talk-transit mailing list
> > > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Talk-transit mailing list
> > Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Talk-transit mailing list
> Talk-transit at openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit
>
>
> End of Talk-transit Digest, Vol 10, Issue 2
> *******************************************
>
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