[Talk-transit] One last question (for now)

Peter Miller peter.miller at itoworld.com
Wed Sep 9 07:38:20 BST 2009


On 8 Sep 2009, at 21:57, Péter Connell wrote:

> I mean timetables as in the ones that get printed.
>
> Will believe NaPTAN names - a bit weird in almost every case round  
> here
> - in printed/PDF Stagecoach timetables round here when I see it...

The names in NaPTAN may well be capable of improvement - that is not  
disputed and the process is ongoing. If OSM mappers can help provide  
good suggestions then that is all for the good. If OSM can provide  
details of nearby landmarks within OSM that are more useful than side  
streets then that is also good and the suggestions may well be used.  
Possibly local OSM mappers should write to their local transport  
authorities and bus operators with their observations. I have made a  
number of suggestions to the council where I have spotted errors and  
they have in general made changes based on my observations reasonably  
quickly.

However, I do repeat the principle that it is not our job to be  
deciding what they should be called, any more that we should be  
renaming streets or adding additional street names into OSM -  
unless---- we have clear evidence that it is a name that is in general  
common usage which is very time-consuming to achieve.

Do be aware that the government is investing a lot of time in moving  
from a system of naming where there were multiple names for stops and  
different naming systems across the country for stops . It is a big  
job involving thousands of organisations and has been going on for at  
least five years and isn't about to stop. They would appreciate our  
support with this.

The core naming principles are:-
1) The name should be meaningful
2) The names should be short enough to fit in the limited space that  
is often available
3) The name should be segmented into elements which can be combined in  
different ways to be more or less specific about the location
4) The stops in a Stop Area should have the same common name and only  
differ in the indicator (to support principle 4 above)
5) A set of standard indicators should be used nationwide (opp, adj, o/ 
s) to describe the relationship between the stop and the landmark



Regards,


Peter





Regards,



Peter


>
> Roger Slevin wrote:
>> Péter<<  It's not just an affectation.
>>
>> ALL timetables shown on traveline south east, east midlands and  
>> east anglia
>> already display NaPTAN names without exception, as do all journey  
>> plans on
>> those systems and on the national Transport Direct journey  
>> planner.  The
>> national arrangements for electronic registration of bus services  
>> is also
>> based on NaPTAN names being used for all timetables ... so all  
>> Stagecoach
>> timetables will be using NaPTAN names by next year ... and others  
>> will
>> follow as electronic registration is implemented across the  
>> industry.  There
>> are many other services where NaPTAN names are already in use  
>> nationwide -
>> such as NextBuses.
>>
>> Roger
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: talk-transit-bounces at openstreetmap.org
>> [mailto:talk-transit-bounces at openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Péter  
>> Connell
>> Sent: 08 September 2009 21:28
>> To: Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>> Subject: Re: [Talk-transit] One last question (for now)
>>
>> Hmmm... yeah... the biggest gap is probably spreading to drivers.
>>
>> I don't think NaPTAN names are going to spread to timetables  
>> though. At
>> least not in the medium term.
>>
>> Another question is whether bus stop names are about identifying bus
>> stops for navigation, identifying bus stops for getting on buses or
>> identifying bus stops for getting /off/ buses.
>>
>> There is an interesting bit about "landmarks" in stop names as well
>> here: http://www.metrobus.co.uk/content/uploads/rte541.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> Peter Miller wrote:
>>
>>> On 8 Sep 2009, at 18:09, Jerry Clough - OSM wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Don't be too hasty (although 5 years seems long enough): there are
>>>> two stops on Castle Boulevard, Nottingham named MFI, which must  
>>>> be 2
>>>> years 'out-of-date'. Many locals will remember the presence of MFI
>>>> long after the chain closed and the site is used for something  
>>>> else.
>>>> There is a location on Nottingham ring-road known as The Futurist,
>>>> after a cinema which closed in the '60s.
>>>>
>>>> This is very similar to bus stops (or even locations) named after
>>>> pubs. I'm sure the A40 still has a Target roundabout on the road
>>>> between Yeading and Greenford, although I remember the pub  
>>>> becoming a
>>>> Macdonalds in the 1980s! There are quite a few bus stops in
>>>> Nottingham which have pub names which seem to be changing to a non
>>>> pub-based name. So "The Crown at Beeston" has become "Police
>>>> Station", two or three stops along "The Hop-Pole" has become
>>>> something completely unmemorable (a street name). The two operators
>>>> of routes along this road use different names, and not all the bus
>>>> signs have been updated. I don't know if this is a policy based on
>>>> the current ephemeral nature of pubs (today I mapped lots of  
>>>> boarded
>>>> up ones, and even the ones which appeared to be open, often have
>>>> "lease this ..." signs outside), or perhaps influenced by
>>>> multi-cultural considerations. Unfortunately they also seem to have
>>>> changed my favorite in-bus announcment : "Halls of Residences".
>>>>
>>>> All in all, this shows that multiple names need to be supported,  
>>>> for
>>>> all sorts of reasons. We're not yet at a point where we can collect
>>>> and support local names on a large scale: but, it would be
>>>> interesting to do so, and bus stops represent a decent sub-set of
>>>> localities. Perhaps we should ask the EPNS!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I fully support using OSM as a repository for multiple names which  
>>> are
>>> used by locals for the stop, but not for OSM mappers to be imposing
>>> their decision about the name on the general public. Surely that is
>>> not correct unless there is very well formed local opinion on the
>>> subject and even so that information needs to get back the NaPTAN
>>> sometime.
>>>
>>> For instance... I used to live near 'Mitcham's Corner' in Cambridge.
>>> Mitchams (the department store) closed in the 1960s but the name has
>>> stuck. I have just checked and there is not a locality of Mitcham's
>>> corner in the NaPTAN gazetteer and the stops in the area are not
>>> called 'mitcham's corner' even though that is what I always told the
>>> driver was my destination. Interestingly the stops in question are
>>> named after a junior school which was demolished and moved 3 years
>>> ago! There is clearly some information that needs to get back to
>>> Traveline.
>>>
>>> There are stops in my current town that are badly named and stop  
>>> areas
>>> that are badly formed. I want more indicator letters to be used to
>>> make the naming easier.
>>>
>>> There is certainly a valid debate to be had about stop names, but I
>>> think the above concerns are still valid.
>>>
>>> A very interesting debate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> *From:* Ed Loach<ed at loach.me.uk<mailto:ed at loach.me.uk>>
>>>> *To:* Public transport/transit/shared taxi related topics
>>>> <talk-transit at openstreetmap.org<mailto:talk-transit at openstreetmap.org 
>>>> >>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 8 September, 2009 15:02:17
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Talk-transit] One last question (for now)
>>>>
>>>> I asked:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Is it worth questioning the stop names? The ones named "B&Q" in
>>>>> Clacton for example are outside their old site (now "The
>>>>> Range"), as B&Q moved to new premises about 5 years ago. I've
>>>>> not yet been to the B&Q stops to see if they have the name on
>>>>> (some stops around here do, some don't - and these are two I've
>>>>> not yet checked).
>>>>>
>>>> I drove past them yesterday, I think. Neither seem to have any post
>>>> (let alone a named post), although one has a "BUS STOP" labelled
>>>> pull in. So names in this case aren't particularly relevant. When I
>>>> do a proper verify of them I'll remove the OSM name field if it
>>>> exists but there is no name there.
>>>>
>>>> Ed
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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